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Subject: Last step question - solved rss

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Dave
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I didn't see a definitive answer on the possible interpretations of the 'last step' rule so I emailed RGG today - got a surprisingly speedy response too! Inserted answer has been highlighted:

Quote:
The rules state: "Reaching the last step: When a figure of a player reaches the last (ninth) step, and the player plays a (valid) card for this path, then he may move any of his other figures one step forward on the path it is on." Can you do this only just once right after reaching the last step, or does it become another option during all subsequent turns this round? Just once. Also, re: the "valid card for this path" - I'm guessing this means valid for the path whose last step was just reached, not the one of the figure you want to move, correct? Yes. Jay


There you have it!
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Laszlo Molnar
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Why just once? What do you use to remember that option was already used once? And why?
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Steve Norton
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I've been confused by this rule in the past. I now take it to mean that when a meeple reaches the last (ninth) step, that player may immediately move one of his other meeples forward one space. This sounds like it works in the same way as the bonus tiles that offer an extra move.

Does this mean that if the bonus tile uncovered on the ninth space is also an extra move, then the player has two bonus moves to spend immediately?
 
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Laszlo Molnar
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Oh, is it some rule difference from Keltis? I thought the rule is "if you play (according to the rules) a card to a color where your adventurer has already reached the last step, you can move another adventurer instead".
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Steve Norton
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lacxox wrote:
Oh, is it some rule difference from Keltis? I thought the rule is "if you play (according to the rules) a card to a color where your adventurer has already reached the last step, you can move another adventurer instead".


This makes sense!! I've never read the rule in that way.

Why isn't there a "lightbulb" emoticon when you need one?!

Thanks!
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brian
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ScoobyG wrote:
I didn't see a definitive answer on the possible interpretations of the 'last step' rule so I emailed RGG today - got a surprisingly speedy response too! Inserted answer has been highlighted:

Quote:
The rules state: "Reaching the last step: When a figure of a player reaches the last (ninth) step, and the player plays a (valid) card for this path, then he may move any of his other figures one step forward on the path it is on." Can you do this only just once right after reaching the last step, or does it become another option during all subsequent turns this round? Just once. Also, re: the "valid card for this path" - I'm guessing this means valid for the path whose last step was just reached, not the one of the figure you want to move, correct? Yes. Jay


There you have it!

I'd be leery of this response. With all due respect to Jay, he doesn't always play by the correct rules as has been evident in a couple games.

There is nothing in the rules that suggest you can do this ONLY once. It is meant as a reward to those who play efficiently in one color not to have a dead hand and not have to pay a penalty by discarding high value cards that others might be looking for.

If you really think this is a valid option, you should check with Knizia.
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Dave
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
ScoobyG wrote:
I didn't see a definitive answer on the possible interpretations of the 'last step' rule so I emailed RGG today - got a surprisingly speedy response too! Inserted answer has been highlighted:

Quote:
The rules state: "Reaching the last step: When a figure of a player reaches the last (ninth) step, and the player plays a (valid) card for this path, then he may move any of his other figures one step forward on the path it is on." Can you do this only just once right after reaching the last step, or does it become another option during all subsequent turns this round? Just once. Also, re: the "valid card for this path" - I'm guessing this means valid for the path whose last step was just reached, not the one of the figure you want to move, correct? Yes. Jay


There you have it!

I'd be leery of this response. With all due respect to Jay, he doesn't always play by the correct rules as has been evident in a couple games.

There is nothing in the rules that suggest you can do this ONLY once. It is meant as a reward to those who play efficiently in one color not to have a dead hand and not have to pay a penalty by discarding high value cards that others might be looking for.

If you really think this is a valid option, you should check with Knizia.


I think Jay is only validating what is the most straightforward interpretation of the rule as written in the rule book. That said, how would one go about contacting Knizia?

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Laszlo Molnar
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ScoobyG wrote:
I think Jay is only validating what is the most straightforward interpretation of the rule as written in the rule book. That said, how would one go about contacting Knizia?

I'd contact
Christopher Dearlove
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who is a Knizia playtester who quite often knows the answers and/or can ask Knizia.
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brian
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ScoobyG wrote:
I think Jay is only validating what is the most straightforward interpretation of the rule as written in the rule book. That said, how would one go about contacting Knizia?


I wouldn't agree that it is the most straight forward interpretation. But I can see how it can be interpreted another way.

All I am saying is that Jay reads these rules just like any other player and draws his own conclusions. Doesn't make him right, even if he is the US publisher. He seems to continually butcher the rules to Stone Age and took forever to get Carcassonne on the correct rule set. He even mashed up Power Grid for a short time.
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Dave
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
I wouldn't agree that it is the most straight forward interpretation. But I can see how it can be interpreted another way.


You need to change either "wouldn't" to "would", or "another" to "this" in order for this sentence to make sense.

And it absolutely, definitely is the obvious way to interpret it. The rules don't say "when a figure is on the last step." They say "reaches", which implies that it happens at that moment and that moment only.

But I agree of course that it needs clarification.
 
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brian
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ScoobyG wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
I wouldn't agree that it is the most straight forward interpretation. But I can see how it can be interpreted another way.


You need to change either "wouldn't" to "would", or "another" to "this" in order for this sentence to make sense.

And it absolutely, definitely is the obvious way to interpret it.

NO. Is that clear? I do not think your interpretation is the most straight forward. But I can see how the rule can be interpreted differently.

You do not play cards after reaching a location. You play a card and then move. That is the established order. So the interpretation that is clearest to me is that once you reach it, whenever you play new cards, you may move your other meeples. Because, again, the only time that you play cards is at the start of your turn implying you have already reached your final step, not that you are in the act of reaching it now.

Nothing about this tells me you break the established order for a one time playing of a single card to move someone else.
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Dave
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
ScoobyG wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
I wouldn't agree that it is the most straight forward interpretation. But I can see how it can be interpreted another way.


You need to change either "wouldn't" to "would", or "another" to "this" in order for this sentence to make sense.

And it absolutely, definitely is the obvious way to interpret it.

NO. Is that clear? I do not think your interpretation is the most straight forward. But I can see how the rule can be interpreted differently.

You do not play cards after reaching a location. You play a card and then move. That is the established order. So the interpretation that is clearest to me is that once you reach it, whenever you play new cards, you may move your other meeples. Because, again, the only time that you play cards is at the start of your turn implying you have already reached your final step, not that you are in the act of reaching it now.

Nothing about this tells me you break the established order for a one time playing of a single card to move someone else.


The overwhelming majority of boardgames have rules that state the normal flow, then additional things that can take place (or the normal ones don't) under special circumstances triggered by certain events. I mean, that's every single boardgame EVER - at least all the ones I've played. Even your example has an exception!

Quote:
You do not play cards after reaching a location. You play a card and then move. That is the established order.


The established order is that you play a card, then move, then sometimes you move again. I understand you were making the point about not playing another card, but same difference.

PS: Just re-read this post and the last few, they sound way more confrontational than I feel about this. Sorry about that! Just trying to get to the bottom of it, really, so I will do as suggested and try to get the word from Knizia
 
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brian
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Yeah, it felt like we were getting confrontational. All I was saying is my interpretation is of course more straight forward to me. So I disagree that your interpretation is more straight forward.

Yes, I realize you can move again but not as a result of a card play, just a result of a "special space."

If the intent was truly a "bonus" move, they would have been better off printing a permanent "move 1 space" bonus tile in each of the final steps (and yes, I realize it is slightly different).

I still contend the rule is a bonus to those that have played efficiently and used low numbers to get through a single color. Those cards are now "dead" to the player who collected them. To make them not dead, he would have to start discarding. And since they are higher numbers, they only benefit your opponents.

By being allowed to play them, it is a reward. That is why I see this as a safety valve rule. You collected 12 Whites cards? Sure, use what you need to get white all the way in and now use the rest on the other colors. Great job!
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Dave
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I see what you mean - your interpretation is nicer to the player, on the other hand timing your discards are also part of the game, so...

Anyhow, I sent a message to user "Dearlove" so we'll see what comes of that.
 
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ScoobyG wrote:
I see what you mean - your interpretation is nicer to the player, on the other hand timing your discards are also part of the game, so...

It is not necessarily nicer. It is still tough to pull off but just mitigates some of the luck of pulling a lot of the same color.

Also, it is not just about what is in your hand. If I play efficient and complete an expedition early, I still have a vested interest in cards that may get discarded or come up in the deck for that color. If the color is complete for me, then I only focus on the other colors and others can safely discard that color knowing I don't want it. So the "niceness" cuts both ways.

To me it keeps options interesting and the game more engaging this way.
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Christopher Dearlove
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lacxox wrote:
ScoobyG wrote:
I think Jay is only validating what is the most straightforward interpretation of the rule as written in the rule book. That said, how would one go about contacting Knizia?

I'd contact
Christopher Dearlove
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who is a Knizia playtester who quite often knows the answers and/or can ask Knizia.


I got that mail, and have asked Reiner. Of course I only sent him an email a couple of minutes ago, and he can be busy, so an answer may take some time.

Unfortunately I can't answer myself usefully. I did playtest the game, but only once and not in either of its final forms - Keltis and LSB - so that doesn't help. I only have a copy of Keltis, in German, and while I got it from Reiner, unusually it doesn't have his English ruleset in it, so I can't answer from that either.
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ScoobyG wrote:
The overwhelming majority of boardgames have rules that state the normal flow, then additional things that can take place (or the normal ones don't) under special circumstances triggered by certain events. I mean, that's every single boardgame EVER - at least all the ones I've played.


Not a boardgame, but if you want a counterexample, the rules for De Bellis Multitudinis (or DBM as it is universally known), a well-known set of miniatures rules (ancient and later) has cases where a rule starts with the exception, and can even have exceptions to exceptions, not necessarily together. However I am not recommending it as an approach.
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Dave
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Thank you so much! We'll wait patiently

Dearlove wrote:
lacxox wrote:
ScoobyG wrote:
I think Jay is only validating what is the most straightforward interpretation of the rule as written in the rule book. That said, how would one go about contacting Knizia?

I'd contact
Christopher Dearlove
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who is a Knizia playtester who quite often knows the answers and/or can ask Knizia.


I got that mail, and have asked Reiner. Of course I only sent him an email a couple of minutes ago, and he can be busy, so an answer may take some time.

Unfortunately I can't answer myself usefully. I did playtest the game, but only once and not in either of its final forms - Keltis and LSB - so that doesn't help. I only have a copy of Keltis, in German, and while I got it from Reiner, unusually it doesn't have his English ruleset in it, so I can't answer from that either.
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Christopher Dearlove
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Reiner Knizia wrote:
You can play it multiple times! - Of course, how could you keep track of "only once", and the totally arbitrary "only once" rule would thereafter leave dead cards. Makes no sense at all!
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brian
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Dearlove wrote:
Reiner Knizia wrote:
You can play it multiple times! - Of course, how could you keep track of "only once", and the totally arbitrary "only once" rule would thereafter leave dead cards. Makes no sense at all!

cool
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Dave
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Dearlove wrote:
Reiner Knizia wrote:
You can play it multiple times! - Of course, how could you keep track of "only once", and the totally arbitrary "only once" rule would thereafter leave dead cards. Makes no sense at all!


But is it instead of your normal play, once per turn, or multiple times right after you reach the last step?
 
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ScoobyG wrote:
Dearlove wrote:
Reiner Knizia wrote:
You can play it multiple times! - Of course, how could you keep track of "only once", and the totally arbitrary "only once" rule would thereafter leave dead cards. Makes no sense at all!


But is it instead of your normal play, once per turn, or multiple times right after you reach the last step?

No. It's your normal play. Say you are all done with Blue but you still have 2 blue 8's and a 9 in your hand. You play the blue 8 as normal, but since you reached your destination, you now have a "wild" card and can advance any of the other meeples that haven't reached their final step.

When it comes back to you again in turn order, play another 8, move another one of your choice. When it comes back to you again, play the 9 and move another of your choice.

You still play by the normal rules, once per turn, no bonus actions. You still must play in the correct numerical order. It just makes it wild as a reward for getting there so efficiently.
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Dave
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Makes sense to me. I'd still argue that it's really hard to get that out of the way it's printed in the rules, but I'll happily accept this interpretation . If it can even be called that, since it's straight from the source!
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ScoobyG wrote:
I'd still argue that it's really hard to get that out of the way it's printed in the rules

I don't know. I got it all along. My old college roommate picked it up the way you did when he taught us the game. I bought the game, read that, and said he taught us wrong. He re-read it and said he agreed with me.

Perhaps it is just local dialect, but "reaching" to me means "after reaching" and when you play cards is when you normally play cards, not some extra step. To me, it takes more of a logic jump to read it the other way.

But I agree we have resolution now and if they ever make a 2nd edition, they should clarify further, possibly with an example. At least make it Jay-proof. Of course the English edition will be clarified in the opposite direction so it matches the way Jay plays...whistle
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Laszlo Molnar
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Jay is a nice guy who publishes great Euros in the USA.
I also know nice guys in Hungary who publish great Euros here.
They are mostly unfortunately not great in reading, understanding and wording rules. Nor is Jay, as many past examples show.
(But well, it's still great that we have them... and have BGG where their mistakes can be pointed at and corrected.)
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