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Subject: Can Leadership boost a value of zero? rss

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Bryan Graham
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I was curious if you can use Leadership to boost a value that a Unit does not have? For instance, when activating a unit that provides, say +2 Attack, can I choose to boost its Block by +3, thus giving it a value of 3? Or does the skill have to boost a value that the activating Unit actually possesses?

Essentially, can I interpret a Unit not providing an attribute as providing a zero value of that attribute (i.e. 0 Block, 0 Attack, etc)




P.S. Sorry if this has already been asked, but I did browse through the Rules forum, and I didn't see it anywhere.
 
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Mikkel Øberg
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I would certaintly say "no", but if you post it in the FAQ forum perhaps Paul will answer.
 
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Chris Linneman
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You cannot boost an ability a unit does not have. There is no reason to think every unit has Attack 0 and Block 0 abilities. They are not printed on the cards, so why would you think they had these abilities?

Similarly, you can't use Ambush to boost a non-existent Attack or Block card (although a sideways card will do in this case).

I should think all of this would go without saying...
 
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Paul Grogan
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Chris is correct. It boosts a score. i.e it Increases an already existing value.
 
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Bryan Graham
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Since you didn't correct him, I assume you CAN use ambush to boost a sideways card? I'm not sure exactly why, but that seems unintuitive to me.
 
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Chris Linneman
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Broccoli wrote:
Since you didn't correct him, I assume you CAN use ambush to boost a sideways card? I'm not sure exactly why, but that seems unintuitive to me.


Any card can be used as Attack or Block 1. So in this case you are boosting an Attack or Block that you played from your hand.
 
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Bryan Graham
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QBert80 wrote:
I should think all of this would go without saying...

I demo-ed this game at BGGCon and was asked this same question by no less than 3 people.

The bottom line is, most gamers fall into 1 of 2 camps when it comes to rules disputes: Camp 1) Whatever is not expressly forbidden is allowed and Camp 2) Whatever is not expressly allowed is forbidden. Most of the people I game with fall into Camp 1, and I usually fall somewhere in-between, but have to mediate disputes nonetheless. Trust me, for people can Camp 1, this does NOT go without saying
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Paul Grogan
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Broccoli wrote:

The bottom line is, most gamers fall into 1 of 2 camps when it comes to rules disputes: Camp 1) Whatever is not expressly forbidden is allowed and Camp 2) Whatever is not expressly allowed is forbidden. Most of the people I game with fall into Camp 1, and I usually fall somewhere in-between, but have to mediate disputes nonetheless. Trust me, for people can Camp 1, this does NOT go without saying


I think the same is true worldwide

The people in Camp 1 however tend to be often wrong as they are always asking "Can I do this?" and I'm saying "Why are you asking that, there is nothing in the rules saying you can do that?" and they say "But there is nothing telling me I can't do it.

It doesnt say anywhere in the rules that I cannot pick up my fame token and move it 9 spaces ahead on the board whilst the other players are getting pizza from the kitchen, but I'm pretty sure I can't.

I'm a "Camp 2" person.

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Chris Linneman
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Broccoli wrote:

The bottom line is, most gamers fall into 1 of 2 camps when it comes to rules disputes: Camp 1) Whatever is not expressly forbidden is allowed and Camp 2) Whatever is not expressly allowed is forbidden. Most of the people I game with fall into Camp 1, and I usually fall somewhere in-between, but have to mediate disputes nonetheless. Trust me, for people can Camp 1, this does NOT go without saying


I guess because the real world operates more like Camp 1, a lot of people think games do too. But in actual fact, games must fall squarely in Camp 2, since a rulebook can only hope to cover what is allowed, given that the realm of disallowed possibilities is nearly infinite.
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PaulGrogan wrote:

The people in Camp 1 however tend to be often wrong as they are always asking "Can I do this?" and I'm saying "Why are you asking that, there is nothing in the rules saying you can do that?" and they say "But there is nothing telling me I can't do it.


Having read enough rulebooks I have come across several that were muddled, incomplete, or otherwise unclear about what is or is not allowed and have seen instances where the situations have gone either way... The fact that the rules do not say that you can do it, does not in fact, say that you cannot do something.

It could be that the rules were unclearly worded, there were unintentional omissions, the author took something for granted or thought that the issue would be as obvious to others as it was to them... any number of reasons.

PaulGrogan wrote:
It doesnt say anywhere in the rules that I cannot pick up my fame token and move it 9 spaces ahead on the board whilst the other players are getting pizza from the kitchen, but I'm pretty sure I can't.


That's ridiculous. You're taking a fair question (a reasonable person may consider the value of a non-existent stat in a newly released game to be zero--indeed, some games would expect you to do this) about a specific game and extrapolating it to an issue of ethics and sportsmanship...
 
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QBert80 wrote:

I guess because the real world operates more like Camp 1, a lot of people think games do too. But in actual fact, games must fall squarely in Camp 2, since a rulebook can only hope to cover what is allowed, given that the realm of disallowed possibilities is nearly infinite.


One has to account for human error. If rule books were error-proof, I might have some sympathy for this argument.

On a different note, every 'do' in the rulebook eliminates several disallowed possibilities. Rule book writers attempt to write tight rules that eliminate all such possibilities (again, within the scope of what's unique to the game... not the pizza example that someone has so eloquently used to label others as cheats) but there are sometimes gray areas, hence the value of forums such as these.

If I were to go by your logic, everything not explicitly stated in the rules would be off-limits and the forum threads about rules would ALL receive replies that effectively chastise the questioner.
 
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Paul Grogan
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kurmuzz wrote:
That's ridiculous. You're taking a fair question (a reasonable person may consider the value of a non-existent stat in a newly released game to be zero--indeed, some games would expect you to do this) about a specific game and extrapolating it to an issue of ethics and sportsmanship...


Apologies. I should have been clearer that I was joking.
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Mikkel Øberg
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PaulGrogan wrote:
Apologies. I should have been clearer that I was joking.

Some of us Camp 1 people got it
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kurmuzz wrote:
If I were to go by your logic, everything not explicitly stated in the rules would be off-limits and the forum threads about rules would ALL receive replies that effectively chastise the questioner.

Not true. Bowen Simmons actually does write airtight rules that are meant to be taken literally as a full description of everything that occurs in the game, but most mere mortals have a difficult time grokking those rules. The answer is in nearly every case a reference to the rules as written, but the questions get asked anyway, and those who answer understand the difficulty and are generally friendly and helpful.
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