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The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game – Khazad-dûm» Forums » Rules

Subject: Frodo vs Cave Troll rss

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Joel Miller
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Cave Troll attacks, Frodo defends. GO!
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Ben Boersma
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Frodo's player's Threat is suddenly increased dramatically...
 
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Bart Rachemoss
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I don't know. It could go either way. The text on the Cave-troll says:
Cave-troll wrote:
For each excess point of combat damage dealt by Cave-troll (damage that is dealt beyond the remaining hit points of the character damaged by its attack) you must damage another character you control.

while Frodo says:
Frodo Baggins wrote:
Response: After Frodo Baggins is damaged, cancel the damage and instead raise your threat by the amount of damage he would have been dealt. (Limit once per phase.)

If we take the Cave-troll literally and simply look at "damage dealt beyond the remaining hit points ..." then ISTM you still have to give the excess damage to another character. Frodo could use his ability to save himself, but the excess damage (above Frodo's remaining hit points) would still have to go to another character.

OTOH if we interpret Frodo's ability as a virtual increase in hit points then all the damage from the Troll could be converted to threat.

It is like an irresistible force and an immovable object. I'd want to get a ruling from FFG. My guess is they will rule in Frodo's favor and let you convert all the damage to threat. If I interpret the text of the cards literally then ISTM the Cave-troll wins.

It's a question of timing. My interpretation is that the Cave-troll only gives Frodo enough damage to kill him and the rest goes to another character.
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Tristan Hall
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BitJam wrote:
My interpretation is that the Cave-troll only gives Frodo enough damage to kill him and the rest goes to another character.


Agreed.
 
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mue makan
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Isn´t the word "remaining" on the Hill Troll and the Cave Troll more misleading than clarifying.
Why isn´t it just "damage that is dealt beyond the hit points of a character"??

And I think for every point of damage you must damage one separate character. Otherwise they could have gone with the wording on the Hill Troll. (Excess combat damage ...blabla....must be assigned to another character)

Or is this all clear for english speaking players and just difficult for me as a german speaking player.

 
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Oleg volobujev
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It's a question of timing. My interpretation is that the Cave-troll only gives Frodo enough damage to kill him and the rest goes to another character.
[/q]

100% agree
 
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Matt
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muemakan wrote:
And I think for every point of damage you must damage one separate character. Otherwise they could have gone with the wording on the Hill Troll. (Excess combat damage ...blabla....must be assigned to another character)


That's an interesting interpretation. It does not say "separate", just "another". I take that to mean you may assign each additional point of damage to any character that is not the defender. For example, if I have 3 points of unassigned damage from this attack, I may assign them to one character, two, or three, however I like.
 
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Troy Adlington
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There is no excess damage. Frodo cancels it all at the cost of threat. Think of him as a sponge in this case.

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Nate Heitz
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Troymk1 wrote:
There is no excess damage. Frodo cancels it all at the cost of threat. Think of him as a sponge in this case.



This is now I interpreted the interaction when I first read the cards.
 
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Scott Roberts
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Rahlan wrote:
Troymk1 wrote:
There is no excess damage. Frodo cancels it all at the cost of threat. Think of him as a sponge in this case.



This is now I interpreted the interaction when I first read the cards.

Me too. There is no limit.
 
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John Steinbach
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Troymk1 wrote:
There is no excess damage. Frodo cancels it all at the cost of threat. Think of him as a sponge in this case.

This seems to be the correct interpretation. It's not that the Cave Troll only deals enough damage to kill a character. The Troll applies its full six attack against the defender. Say you defend it with a Snowbourn Scout (terrible idea, by the way). Even though the Scout only has 1 health, it will be dealt (6-1) 5 damage. The overkill damage is not shunted off to other characters. Instead, additional damage is assigned to other characters based on the amount of overkill. So, Frodo will cancel (6-2) 4 damage, and raise his controller's threat by 4.

mmoberly wrote:
That's an interesting interpretation. It does not say "separate", just "another". I take that to mean you may assign each additional point of damage to any character that is not the defender. For example, if I have 3 points of unassigned damage from this attack, I may assign them to one character, two, or three, however I like.

I think this is also right. The key terms are "for each" and, as you noted, "another." For each point of overkill damage, you assign 1 damage to any character other than the defender. These points are assigned individually, so they can be placed on one character or any number of separate characters.
 
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Bart Rachemoss
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Starhawk77 wrote:
Say you defend it with a Snowbourn Scout (terrible idea, by the way). Even though the Scout only has 1 health, it will be dealt (6-1) 5 damage. The overkill damage is not shunted off to other characters. Instead, additional damage is assigned to other characters based on the amount of overkill. So, Frodo will cancel (6-2) 4 damage, and raise his controller's threat by 4.

I think it could go either way but ISTM what you are saying here about Frodo contradicts the text on the Cave-troll which gives a very clear recipe of how to calculate the "overkill damage":
Cave-troll wrote:
damage that is dealt beyond the remaining hit points of the character damaged by its attack

Frodo's ability does not change his remaining hit points. It could have (and it would have been much clearer if it did) but it doesn't. With no attachments, Frodo's remaining hit points are 2 minus the number of damage tokens on him. Sure, he has this wonderful ability to cancel damage but that does not change his hit points.

So if your interpretation is correct (that the defending character receives all the damage and then "excess damage" is doled out to other characters), it could well be that even if Frodo converts all the damage to threat, other characters still receive "excess damage". I think this is the least likely possibility discussed so far.

IMO the text on Frodo conflicts with the text on the Cave-troll. Since the text on the Cave-troll is clear and specific in defining "excess damage", it makes sense to me to use the Cave-troll's definition until a ruling from FFG comes along. My guess is that FFG will clarify this by saying, in effect, that Frodo momentarily increases his hit points when his response is used but this is only a guess.
 
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John Steinbach
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BitJam wrote:

I think it could go either way but ISTM what you are saying here about Frodo contradicts the text on the Cave-troll which gives a very clear recipe of how to calculate the "overkill damage":[q="Cave-troll"]damage that is dealt beyond the remaining hit points of the character damaged by its attack

Yeah, I'm not questioning how to calculate the overkill amount. That's pretty easy. The thing is, the ability says, "For each excess point of combat damage...you must damage another character you control." It does NOT say, "Excess combat damage must be dealt to another character you control." That's why I think it's pretty clear that the damage assigned to other characters is based on, but not the same as, the actual damage from the Cave Troll's attack.

BitJam wrote:
So if your interpretation is correct (that the defending character receives all the damage and then "excess damage" is doled out to other characters), it could well be that even if Frodo converts all the damage to threat, other characters still receive "excess damage". I think this is the least likely possibility discussed so far.

I think it's entirely possible that Frodo could cancel 4 damage and leave his controller with 2 damage to assign elsewhere. Since Frodo's ability won't work against cards like Muck Adder, we know that damage is actually dealt to him before he cancels it. The Cave Troll's ability would trigger as soon as damage is dealt, so the amount of "overkill" would presumably be calculated at that instant. The Bilbo in me won't play that way (I think the intent is clearly that the troll has to kill the initial target), but it's a valid rules interpretation.
 
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Paul Clarke
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I'm reading it this way..

Quote:
Response: After Frodo Baggins is damaged, cancel the damage and instead raise your threat by the amount of damage he would have been dealt. (Limit once per phase.)


Let's have an example where Frodo gets attacked by the ever vicious Ungoliant's Spawn and gets clobbered for 5 points of damage. In this situation, Frodo can cancel all five points of damage from the nasty arachnid and raise threat by five. There is no excess damage.

Applied to the troll, then, Frodo takes all the damage and raises threat by that amount. Still nasty, in my book!

Surely the outcome of either interpretation will still cause havoc...
 
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Troy Adlington
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"Response: After Frodo Baggins is damaged, cancel the damage and instead raise your threat by the amount of damage he would have been dealt. (Limit once per phase.)"

Yes, the word cancels makes all this other talk rather ephemeral to my mind. There is NO damage to transfer.
 
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Sören M.
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http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?e...

here is a discussion about frodo and the hill troll.

the problem there was, that it was unclear if one should raise the threat by 6, as in canceling all 6 damage, raising by 4, as in minus the defence of frodo, or by 8, as in 6 for frodo canceling the damage and 2 for the overkill of the troll.

the consensus reached there was, that the threat is raised by 4, because frodo cancels the damage, so the ability of the troll is not activated. same logic applied here, should mean you raise your threat by 4 and do not apply any wounds to anyone.
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John Steinbach
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Troymk1 wrote:

Yes, the word cancels makes all this other talk rather ephemeral to my mind. There is NO damage to transfer.

Depends how much you really want to dissect the wording and timing structure. Per the letter of the rules and the Muck Adder timing, Frodo should be dealt 4 damage (and 2 overkill damage assigned elsewhere) before he cancels it.

But that seems kind of silly. I recall someone on here (or maybe the FFG boards) saying that we might be doing ourselves a disservice by looking for complete clarity and consistency in wording. The designers seem much more concerned with fun than with pleasing rules lawyers. The abilities on Brand and Legolas, for instance, trigger in the same way even though they are worded differently. Grating as it may sound to some, it might be best to just think about what the Cave Troll's ability is "supposed" to do (yes, designer intent). Seems like the Troll is supposed to obliterate a defender, then deal splash damage to other characters (as the corpse/pieces of the defender go flying, perhaps?). If the defender isn't crushed, can the overkill occur? Doesn't seem like it should work that way. So, I think the spirit of the ability supports the notion that Frodo will be able to cancel the 4 damage he would be dealt and not worry about other allies taking wounds.

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Ryan Hanson
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My interpretation, assuming Frodo exhausts to defend and that Frodo is undamaged:

Cave Troll deals 6 damage to Frodo. 2 is cancelled due to Defense applied. 4 damage remains to be applied.

Option A: Frodo's response is triggered by his controlling player. Frodo cancels all 4 remaining damage and his controlling player raises threat by 4.

Option B: Frodo's response is not triggered. 4 damage is applied to Frodo, killing him. 2 of that damage is "excess" and must now be applied to other characters that player controls.

So it sounds like I agree with the consensus from the Fantasy Flight forums.
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J C
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Actually the reason Frodo's ability doesn't work against the Muck Adder is because its ability is Forced and regular Responses can only happen after the Forced response (per the FFG FAQ).

Since Cave Troll's ability isn't a Forced response, and Frodo's ability talks about it as no longer being dealt ("would have been dealt") I would take it to mean it can cancel Cave Troll's ability.

Another way to think about it in a quasi-MtG way is:
* Damage is dealt
Excess damage check goes on the stack
If Frodo Responds, "cancel damage" goes on the stack

* Frodo's Response resolves, cancelling the damage and raising threat.
* The excess damage check resolves, there's no excess damage so no damage is assigned to another character you control.

Of course you could also interpret it as:
*Damage is dealt
Damage to other characters due to excess damage is put on the stack
If Frodo Responds, "cancel damage" goes on the stack

* Frodo's Response resolves, cancelling the damage and raising threat.
* Damage to other characters due to excess damage is assigned.

The worst of all possible outcomes because Frodo would arguably increase threat by the amount he was damaged (4 - note the wording doesn't say the excess damage is transferred to the other character, but rather for each damage DEALT you damage another character) and the (2) excess damage would cause (2) damage to be assigned to another character you control as well.

But due to the rule wording that gives Forced special precedence, and the Hill Troll ability not being a Forced effect, I would tend to lean towards the former interpretation.
 
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Tomas Riha
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Yes cancel is the key here. There is no damage dealt just a threat increase.
 
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Yiorgos Golfinopoulos
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LegolasTN wrote:
Actually the reason Frodo's ability doesn't work against the Muck Adder is because its ability is Forced and regular Responses can only happen after the Forced response (per the FFG FAQ).


Yes, but in this case the Troll has a passive ability which takes precedence even before Forced abilities.

The way I see it, Frodo's response come too late to absorb the full damage of the Troll. The Troll will give him just enough damage to kill him, which he can later transform to a threat increase.

 
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Addison Fox
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I think there are two ways to go about this; one is 'common sensical' and the other is super nitpicky with wording.

The common sense answer is, the troll deals 6 damage, of which two go to shields and four go to Frodo. At this point, the troll's passive ability is calculated, and the two damage in excess of Frodo's hit points are locked in to be assigned. At this point, Frodo's response can trigger on the four damage that would go on to kill him, and you raise your threat by 4. The two excess damage points are then assigned out.

The super nitpicky answer is that the troll's wording is "Excess damage dealt" and Frodo's wording is "Would have been dealt". So in that case, the troll swings for 6, and Frodo blocks. Two go to shields, and then he responds by raising his threat by 4 for the combat damage he would have been assigned. Then the troll checks for excess damage dealt, sees that no damage has been dealt at all, and is sad.

I suspect that the intent is the first one, because it is worse for the players and it follows the example of 'passive' abilities being faster than 'forced' or 'response' abilities.
 
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J C
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Boofus wrote:
Yes, but in this case the Troll has a passive ability which takes precedence even before Forced abilities.

The way I see it, Frodo's response come too late to absorb the full damage of the Troll. The Troll will give him just enough damage to kill him, which he can later transform to a threat increase.

Yes, at the time I wrote the earlier post it wasn't clear what the process for resolving was, but based on the 1.36 & 1.37 rules released Feb 2013 that seems to be the correct interpretation, the steps being:
Apply combat damage
Passive: Assign excess damage
Forced: [any relevant forced effects]
Response: Frodo cancels damage and raises threat
Place any defeated Heroes in the discard pile
 
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