Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
21 Posts

Yomi» Forums » General

Subject: Best sets? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Eric O. LEBIGOT
France
Versailles
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Are all the Yomi sets as interesting as the others? I was thinking of buying one or two sets from the following list (they're the only ones I could find):

- MIDORI AND SETSUKI
- ROOK AND DEGREY
- VALERIE AND GEIGER

Which one, or which pair would you recommend?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fede Miguez
Argentina
Capital Federal
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
with 0 information about your preferences, I recommend Midor/Setsuki.

edit:
let's explain a little

Midori: based on few but powerful moves, turns into a Dragon for better moves
Setsuki: plays lots of low damage, fast moves. Can draw a new hand every turn.
This seems to have the most variety from all the decks proposed and the most "opposed" styles.

Rook: powerful, fast throws. Slow attacks but that can hit through faster attacks.
DeGrey: big hitter, slow speed (but faster than Rook)
This match is a lot more about reading your opponent's combat card than hand management which might or might not be a good thing.

Geiger: can retrieve cards from discard and deck, huge bomb combo
Valerie: can draw cards even when attacking, (only) big bomb combo
This can turn into a block fest early game, that's why I don't recommend over the others
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Anssi Niemi
Finland
flag msg tools
The Midori-Sets set has the problem that the matchup is a complete nightmare for Setsuki, and has to be played absurdly carefully for there to be any hope of winning against a Midori who's on top of his game.

If you're grabbing two two-packs then the Midori-Setsuki one is a great buy - both are very interesting, unique characters that play well with others. This one matchup is bad, however.

I very much recommend the Grave-Jaina two-pack. Both are nice, well-rounded and versatile characters that can support multiple playstyles (Grave especially) and hold their own against just about anyone (plus they can "cheat" due to how good True Power of Storms and Unstable Power are).

Hunting for Lum and Arg is also a good idea - both are really well rounded critters with unique gameplay twists. Lum is a bit difficult if you want to focus on playing one of his styles, but otherwise both are fine. Again, both do well enough against almost anyone else.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Sirlin
United States
California
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
By "nightmare for Setsuki" I think he means "6-4 matchup" heh. That is considered very close in other games.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fede Miguez
Argentina
Capital Federal
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Komatik wrote:
The Midori-Sets set has the problem that the matchup is a complete nightmare for Setsuki, and has to be played absurdly carefully for there to be any hope of winning against a Midori who's on top of his game.
For the record, I am amongst the ones that doesn't agree with this and think the match up is fine. Specially for new players.

PD: re-reading the OP notices you also asked for maybe 2 packs. I would say that any combination of those 3 are a good pick since the match-ups between them spice things up. I recommend the Rook-DeGrey set favouring theme (everyone gets what a big rock guy does) and Valerie-Geiger favouring mechanics (hand management - card retrieval/engine)
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jessey
Canada
flag msg tools
designer
I also purchased this and do not know what to do with it!
badge
I purchased this and do not know what to do with it!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I agree with Midori/Sets - Sets was my first love (and that's true for most Yomi players I believe!) and Midori is my new rock - he's a solid, rounded character who if played well can handle himself firmly in many games. Also, he-turns-into-a-dragon.

Regarding a second pack I'd recommend Geiger/Valerie over Rook/DeGrey. I have a friend who has played Rook since day 1 and he's changed over to Midori recently because he finds Rook too difficult to play (and he is by no means bad at the game). Rook is best early game makes for a constant uphill battle. DeGrey is fun, and interesting and all but I think Valerie and Geiger's massive damage bursting is more fun and that DeGrey is matched up with Rook I consider a point against the pair.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alejandro Magno
Argentina
flag msg tools
I don't know much what are the sets, but I strongly recommend having Grave, Rook or Geiger somewhere.
The reason is that TPOS, Checkmate buster, and Huge timespiral combo. Are the 3 most "satisfactory things" to do as a new player imo (and later too probably.)
(Of course people could say that becoming a dragon, refilling your hand every turn, do a 6 normal combo-double masterpiece next turns, Hitting a naked pilebunker, are so close to that that's not relevant).

I don't suggest Arg or Degrey for beginners since they may feel too much smashing buttons too early.

In that regard I think Val vs Geiger may be the best as it feels the opposite of smashing buttons even for beginners.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Enjoy some homing fireballs!
United States
Arlington
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Sirlin wrote:
By "nightmare for Setsuki" I think he means "6-4 matchup" heh. That is considered very close in other games.

The closest I've ever seen that matchup listed at is 6.5-3.5; there are several notable players (Aphotix, for instance) who consider it 7-3.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Klaus Musstermann
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Get Rook's set and then Midori's set so players can yell "Final Dragon Buster" and "Checkmate Buster" at each other like it's "Duck Season / Wabbit Season."
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Chicago
Illinois
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
lebigot wrote:
Are all the Yomi sets as interesting as the others? I was thinking of buying one or two sets from the following list (they're the only ones I could find):

- MIDORI AND SETSUKI
- ROOK AND DEGREY
- VALERIE AND GEIGER

Which one, or which pair would you recommend?


see my poll

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/6120416#6120416
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Anssi Niemi
Finland
flag msg tools
Sirlin wrote:
By "nightmare for Setsuki" I think he means "6-4 matchup" heh. That is considered very close in other games.


I think I know damn well just what I intend to say, sir. If I say "nightmare" or "requiring extreme care" I do mean that. The match is winnable, no doubt, but it is very, very hard if Midori ever manages to get into Dragon Form.
The human form can be dealt with, it's just the contortions you're forced to go through to account for DF's absurd power in the matchup that makes it more difficult than what it should be, at least if you want to play safe and hoard Smokebomb as your "out" card. The Smokebomb plan means both your damage output and life total are hugely inferior to Midori.

If you play it in a more risky manner and keep a King at hand at all times (for comboing into Tumbler), you're more free to do what Sets normally does. This gains you comptetitive combat damage but risks huge Glimpse blowouts and can't reliably deal with a resolved Dragon Form. "very close". Yeah, right.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Sirlin
United States
California
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Midori-Setsuki is considered 6-4 at worst, so pretty close.

http://yomicg.wikia.com/wiki/Tier_List
http://www.fantasystrike.com/forums/index.php?threads/new-ti...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Anssi Niemi
Finland
flag msg tools
Sirlin wrote:


Linking to the same thing twice is tech. Also, vivafringe's list is old-ish, and if you read the last page, he's considering downgrading Mid-Sets to be 6.5-3.5. Finally, personal experience and discussions with people better than me indicate that the matchup is anything but "close". I damn well wish it was, but it isn't.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alejandro Magno
Argentina
flag msg tools
For what's worth , for people used to competitive gaming, calling even a 7-3 match "Nightmare" is overreacting.
Sadly I have Zero knowledge of that specific matchup to give any input.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt DeMasi
United States
New York
flag msg tools
Komatik wrote:
Sirlin wrote:
By "nightmare for Setsuki" I think he means "6-4 matchup" heh. That is considered very close in other games.


I think I know damn well just what I intend to say, sir. If I say "nightmare" or "requiring extreme care" I do mean that. The match is winnable, no doubt, but it is very, very hard if Midori ever manages to get into Dragon Form.
The human form can be dealt with, it's just the contortions you're forced to go through to account for DF's absurd power in the matchup that makes it more difficult than what it should be, at least if you want to play safe and hoard Smokebomb as your "out" card. The Smokebomb plan means both your damage output and life total are hugely inferior to Midori.

If you play it in a more risky manner and keep a King at hand at all times (for comboing into Tumbler), you're more free to do what Sets normally does. This gains you comptetitive combat damage but risks huge Glimpse blowouts and can't reliably deal with a resolved Dragon Form. "very close". Yeah, right.


Sets has an advantage for X amount of turns in the early game, where X will vary based on the Midori's draw. Without face cards, and either 2* or 10* (10 is very costly in some cases), Sets has a clean advantage. Also, no matter how bad things are for Sets, Q can still bail her out of any negative situation, and she doesn't really care if Midori blocks the Q during the mid to late game (since she will be all in on trying to kill him by then). The gameplan is to try and throw Midori early (being thrown is not nearly as bad as having your attack blocked), then use fast attacks later on to close out the match. AA is very important in this case for Sets, because she doesn't have as much time as she would like. Overall, the MU is definitely 6-4, but I think you're alone in calling it a "nightmare".
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Enjoy some homing fireballs!
United States
Arlington
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Aphotix wrote:
Overall, the MU is definitely 6-4, but I think you're alone in calling it a "nightmare".

No, he is not alone in calling it nightmare- and this is coming from the guy who you tapped to play Sets on your team in the team tournaments.

The problem with trying to throw him early is that he's got super card-efficient throws that just demolish yours cleanly. So even though you've got to do it, there's a really good chance that you're losing half or more of your health on the first 3 or 4 turns, to maybe take out 15-20% of his. Then he gets Q and Glimpse, and Sets can't really do anything about it, for about 23 more damage for each one he draws. The sad part is, Midori doesn't even need 2* in the matchup, because DF is only relevant on Q, and you'd rather not advertise that it's ready- which means that Midori has even more fast, efficient throws than normal.

Also, "save face cards for late" doesn't really work with Sets. Her innate means you've got to use most of them, if you get them.

Viva's tier list has Sets vs. Midori as worse than Geiger vs. Sets. That should tell you just how bad the matchup is.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Sirlin
United States
California
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
6-4 is a close match though. I mean that's what 6-4 means, "close match" or "slight disadvantage," if you like. It's common to play 6-4 matchups all day in Street Fighter tournaments, for example, so no it's not a "nightmare." Maybe some perspective has been lost here about what is considered close in every other asymmetric game with 10+ characters.

Incidentally, viva's tier list has Geiger vs. Setsuki *also* at 6-4, meaning also a close / slight disadvantage match.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Enjoy some homing fireballs!
United States
Arlington
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Sirlin wrote:
6-4 is a close match though. I mean that's what 6-4 means, "close match" or "slight disadvantage," if you like. It's common to play 6-4 matchups all day in Street Fighter tournaments, for example, so no it's not a "nightmare." Maybe some perspective has been lost here about what is considered close in every other asymmetric game with 10+ characters.

Incidentally, viva's tier list has Geiger vs. Setsuki *also* at 6-4, meaning also a close / slight disadvantage match.

Which I used as an example to show just how conservative Viva's tier list is. I definitely have a better than 60% winrate as Sets in that matchup, against better players than me to boot.

And there is no way that Sets vs. Mid is 6-4. I can't possibly believe it's any closer than 6.5-3.5. It really is about as bad as Lum vs. Rook.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kovács György
Hungary
Budapest
flag msg tools
mbmb
Sirlin wrote:
It's common to play 6-4 matchups all day in Street Fighter tournaments, for example, so no it's not a "nightmare." Maybe some perspective has been lost here about what is considered close in every other asymmetric game with 10+ characters.

While you're probably more of an authority on SF than I am, that doesn't seem like an entirely valid comparison. In Street Fighter, there's a lot more you can do to compensate for an uneven matchup, so a 6-4 matchup would be less frustrating there than here. It's not just the execution aspect, either, which is trivial in Yomi and far less so even in fighting games that go easy on the player. Perception is challenging in SF due to split-second timings and sub-pixel distances that can make a difference, and again, no such thing in Yomi. There's also the immense amount of raw mechanical complexity in SF that can potentially be explored and exploited. A dozen numbers are enough to describe the "frame data" of a character in Yomi, whereas in SF, it's more like a dozen numbers per move.

Note that all the above isn't really a flaw in Yomi, per se, it simply comes with being a turn-based board game as opposed to a real-time computer game.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
K
United States
Oakland
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think Yomi is also less subject to strict statistical balance constraints and allows you to overcome disadvantages more than many card or board games due to the extreme level that predicting your opponents moves is rewarded. Statistical advantages definitely mean something, but only so long as you can pick the right move at the right time.

I think that's actually sort of a similar situation to fighting games like Street fighter, where your opponent's character might have the advantage on paper, and it may be almost objectively reasoned to be so, but if you read him better than he reads you and land more hits, those advantages don't always get to come into play like they ought to

Not saying Yomi is immune to balance problems or anything, just that because reading the player is rewarded over all else that the players have more influence over these matchups than most card games where the capabilities of your deck are often more static. Assuming that we're accepting "Yomi" or "reading the opponent" as a real skill, which as a fighting game player I do

P.S. As far as the original poster's question goes, I'm going to cast my vote for the Valerie deck -- with her WOW combos and really simple abilities I think she's a fun and well rounded character to taste the game with. But Fede did make a convincing argument for why the Valerie/Geiger combo doesn't offer as much variety in the opposing playstyles, so maybe listen to him . I'm sort of biased because I really have a lot of fun playing Valerie and Midori doesn't interest me much
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Boeren
United States
Marietta
Georgia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I say pick the characters that interest you.

I started with the Midori/Setsuki pack because I liked the concept of Midori being able to turn into a dragon. Probably didn't hurt that he seemed to be a bit of an "underdog" character, as I prefer not to play the top tier guys. It's much more fun winning with someone less common than having people claim you only beat them because you're using a cheesy character.

Since then though I've also developed some appreciation for Setsuki, the hand management she requires to get the free draws and therefore get the most out of her ability is interesting and requires more planning ahead than most characters.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.