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Subject: Again, military is too strong? rss

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Nicola Leonardi
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Hi guys!

First of all i apologize for my english, but i am italian and we have screwed all the money for public education a long time ago. cool

I decided to post this thread to ask what people think of military in this game, that our playgroup consider a bit unstoppable.
I read many concern about it, but mine is pretty simple: how could you defend against an high stacking limit (4-5) that attacks your capital, when you will draw 6 cards maximum? I mean, defending a city let you draw 6 cards, and there is no way to change this. Since going forward in the game let stacking limit grow but forces to defend remains the same 6, i think that you can't do anything to defend yourself.

Military, in our opionion, is the only way of victory that affects how other player must play : if there is a military civ, then other civs must adapt to it or die badly and , in most cases, the military leader still win. Even in our last game, where the greeks pulled out a massive technology burst, with a possible tech win in turn 9 or 10, the same greeks would have won 2 turns before with a military victory (they had teche'd biology,and level 3 infantry and rifleman).

My point is that military is too fast and too cheap to do, and that force all table to play defensively disregarding initial or ideal strategy. Maybe i am wrong, but even walled metropolis are to weak with only his six cards. Barracks or academies dont'change much in my mind, and in case military leader got a general as special person, you are screwed.

Another point is that i can't see how to win with coins, but probably this is due to the fact that in our games nobody has time to develop an economic system , spending resoureces to keep it up with military leaders.

I hope all this is only in my mind and that some wise and experienced player guide me an my group to new strategy and measures against military forces. Just becasue except that, we love this game.

Again sorry for my Italienglish. gulp

 
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Paulo Santoro
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No.

Take a look in Masonry, Fundamentalism and Computers. Think about Communism. Remember Barracks. Consider Mathematics, Ballistics and Iron. Try upgrade your army.

Have fun.
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Henrik Johansson
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Also there are some culture cards that are very usefull to keep large armys away, disorientation and desertion comes to mind (don't have the cards infront of me so the names might not be 100% correct).
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Daniel Hammond
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beric77 wrote:
Hi guys!

First of all i apologize for my english, but i am italian and we have screwed all the money for public education a long time ago. :cool:

I decided to post this thread to ask what people think of military in this game, that our playgroup consider a bit unstoppable.
I read many concern about it, but mine is pretty simple: how could you defend against an high stacking limit (4-5) that attacks your capital, when you will draw 6 cards maximum? I mean, defending a city let you draw 6 cards, and there is no way to change this. Since going forward in the game let stacking limit grow but forces to defend remains the same 6, i think that you can't do anything to defend yourself.

Military, in our opionion, is the only way of victory that affects how other player must play : if there is a military civ, then other civs must adapt to it or die badly and , in most cases, the military leader still win. Even in our last game, where the greeks pulled out a massive technology burst, with a possible tech win in turn 9 or 10, the same greeks would have won 2 turns before with a military victory (they had teche'd biology,and level 3 infantry and rifleman).

My point is that military is too fast and too cheap to do, and that force all table to play defensively disregarding initial or ideal strategy. Maybe i am wrong, but even walled metropolis are to weak with only his six cards. Barracks or academies dont'change much in my mind, and in case military leader got a general as special person, you are screwed.

Another point is that i can't see how to win with coins, but probably this is due to the fact that in our games nobody has time to develop an economic system , spending resoureces to keep it up with military leaders.

I hope all this is only in my mind and that some wise and experienced player guide me an my group to new strategy and measures against military forces. Just becasue except that, we love this game.

Again sorry for my Italienglish. :gulp:



Communism : lock that stack down.
Computers : do increase your number of defending units
Fanaticism : also increases your unit draw
Mathematics/Ballistics : let you kill units without matching them with units of your own
Healing Techs/unit upgrades : make your own units stronger and heal them so they can't be so easily killed.
Monarchy : lets you kill their units without fighting.
Writing : Cancel the rebuild of units
Uranium : Nuke his cities to kill his bonuses/production or nuke your own after you lock him down in its outskirts.
In non-2 player games get help


Good luck!
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Nicola Leonardi
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PauloSantoro wrote:
No.

Take a look in Masonry, Fundamentalism and Computers. Think about Communism. Remember Barracks. Consider Mathematics, Ballistics and Iron. Try upgrade your army.

Have fun.


Yeah but i think a military player should have mathematics, ballistics and iron too, so the only thing i can do is to stay equal in bonuses with my enemy, that could attack me with more cards, and win...
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Nicola Leonardi
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Smuggler wrote:
Also there are some culture cards that are very usefull to keep large armys away, disorientation and desertion comes to mind (don't have the cards infront of me so the names might not be 100% correct).


Since culture cards are randomly drawn, it's not certaint that you will have in your hands when you need them.So ok, could help IF you lucky enough to get a hand of useful defending cards...
 
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Ted Swalwell
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beric77 wrote:
Smuggler wrote:
Also there are some culture cards that are very usefull to keep large armys away, disorientation and desertion comes to mind (don't have the cards infront of me so the names might not be 100% correct).


Since culture cards are randomly drawn, it's not certaint that you will have in your hands when you need them.So ok, could help IF you lucky enough to get a hand of useful defending cards...


Whilst this is true to an extent, if you're going for culture, then you'll be drawing quite a large number of culture cards. The chances of getting none that will give a millitary player pause for thought are quite low. (Especially with the expansion.)
 
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You can also attack their figures with yours, before they reach your capitol in order to try to whittle their units down. Being able to attack with 11 cards is of no use if they only have 5. And if the other players don't want to lose (in a multi-player game) than they should be helping you to weaken that player.
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Nicola Leonardi
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savantt wrote:
beric77 wrote:
Smuggler wrote:
Also there are some culture cards that are very usefull to keep large armys away, disorientation and desertion comes to mind (don't have the cards infront of me so the names might not be 100% correct).


Since culture cards are randomly drawn, it's not certaint that you will have in your hands when you need them.So ok, could help IF you lucky enough to get a hand of useful defending cards...


Whilst this is true to an extent, if you're going for culture, then you'll be drawing quite a large number of culture cards. The chances of getting none that will give a millitary player pause for thought are quite low. (Especially with the expansion.)


True , but shit happens In some games i played where i was ahead in culture (3 spaces from victory in the best case) i just see one of these cards that eliminate an opponent flag. Anyway i accept that it could be only bad luck.

 
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Nicola Leonardi
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DoomTurtle wrote:
You can also attack their figures with yours, before they reach your capitol in order to try to whittle their units down. Being able to attack with 11 cards is of no use if they only have 5. And if the other players don't want to lose (in a multi-player game) than they should be helping you to weaken that player.


I don't think is a good idea, since you also have to face losses, and if you have many cards above 6, probably YOU are the military leader or the second one... If you attack an enemy that has 5 flags, and let's say 12 cards, with your army of 2 flags (since you are not military i dont'think you will waste resources to make more) is a 5 vs 11 fight that, in the best case could kill 2 opponent forces and 3/4 of yours, leaving your city even more defenceless...
You can't herass more powerful military players unless you get help from other players, i think. On your own, you only have to wait and hope nobody foucuses his anger on you.
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Nicola Leonardi
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dlhammond wrote:
beric77 wrote:
Hi guys!

First of all i apologize for my english, but i am italian and we have screwed all the money for public education a long time ago. cool

I decided to post this thread to ask what people think of military in this game, that our playgroup consider a bit unstoppable.
I read many concern about it, but mine is pretty simple: how could you defend against an high stacking limit (4-5) that attacks your capital, when you will draw 6 cards maximum? I mean, defending a city let you draw 6 cards, and there is no way to change this. Since going forward in the game let stacking limit grow but forces to defend remains the same 6, i think that you can't do anything to defend yourself.

Military, in our opionion, is the only way of victory that affects how other player must play : if there is a military civ, then other civs must adapt to it or die badly and , in most cases, the military leader still win. Even in our last game, where the greeks pulled out a massive technology burst, with a possible tech win in turn 9 or 10, the same greeks would have won 2 turns before with a military victory (they had teche'd biology,and level 3 infantry and rifleman).

My point is that military is too fast and too cheap to do, and that force all table to play defensively disregarding initial or ideal strategy. Maybe i am wrong, but even walled metropolis are to weak with only his six cards. Barracks or academies dont'change much in my mind, and in case military leader got a general as special person, you are screwed.

Another point is that i can't see how to win with coins, but probably this is due to the fact that in our games nobody has time to develop an economic system , spending resoureces to keep it up with military leaders.

I hope all this is only in my mind and that some wise and experienced player guide me an my group to new strategy and measures against military forces. Just becasue except that, we love this game.

Again sorry for my Italienglish. gulp



Communism : lock that stack down.
Computers : do increase your number of defending units
Fanaticism : also increases your unit draw
Mathematics/Ballistics : let you kill units without matching them with units of your own
Healing Techs/unit upgrades : make your own units stronger and heal them so they can't be so easily killed.
Monarchy : lets you kill their units without fighting.
Writing : Cancel the rebuild of units
Uranium : Nuke his cities to kill his bonuses/production or nuke your own after you lock him down in its outskirts.
In non-2 player games get help


Good luck!


Comunism : it requires Spies, that aren't found so easily. I see entire matches without a single spy comes out.
Computers : increase your hand limit by one with 5 coins, that is very little advantage if you are not economic oriented.
Fanaticism: could help, but is a card and nullifies other more convenient governance for you.
Mathematics/ballistics: are tech that military player is supposed to have, so you can't get a real advantage, but only limit the strength difference.
Healing tech,ecc: same as maths/ballistic these tech are for a military civs first, and you MUST acquire them in order to not concede advantage with military leader.
Monarchy: you could eliminate ONE army and he could, with engineering, building 4. Pretty useless i think.
Writing : same as monarchy, but you are using useful resources to slow down an opponent rather thant develop your own strategy.
Nuke : at the point of the game where you are in danger of a capital conquest, it changes nothing. It cost uranium, that is not present in all games.

Still of my idea, though...
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Daniel Hammond
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beric77 wrote:


Comunism : it requires Spies, that aren't found so easily. I see entire matches without a single spy comes out.
Computers : increase your hand limit by one with 5 coins, that is very little advantage if you are not economic oriented.
Fanaticism: could help, but is a card and nullifies other more convenient governance for you.
Mathematics/ballistics: are tech that military player is supposed to have, so you can't get a real advantage, but only limit the strength difference.
Healing tech,ecc: same as maths/ballistic these tech are for a military civs first, and you MUST acquire them in order to not concede advantage with military leader.
Monarchy: you could eliminate ONE army and he could, with engineering, building 4. Pretty useless i think.
Writing : same as monarchy, but you are using useful resources to slow down an opponent rather thant develop your own strategy.
Nuke : at the point of the game where you are in danger of a capital conquest, it changes nothing. It cost uranium, that is not present in all games.

Still of my idea, though... :)


I would recommend checking out Play by Forum games #1 and #3. And spies aren't that rare (I have kept a stack locked for at least 5 turns).
 
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Joshua Chen
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dlhammond wrote:


Communism : lock that stack down.
Computers : do increase your number of defending units
Fanaticism : also increases your unit draw
Mathematics/Ballistics : let you kill units without matching them with units of your own
Healing Techs/unit upgrades : make your own units stronger and heal them so they can't be so easily killed.
Monarchy : lets you kill their units without fighting.
Writing : Cancel the rebuild of units
Uranium : Nuke his cities to kill his bonuses/production or nuke your own after you lock him down in its outskirts.
In non-2 player games get help


Good luck!


Computers: Only effective if you're going economy or if you get enough coins from GP, tiles, Code of Laws, etc. In the expansion, it's even harder to put it to use as a non-economy player would most likely invest most of his or her coins.
Fanaticism: Fanaticism is an extremely inconvenient form of government, and Theology is certainly far from the best level 3 tech, even for culture players. It's quite a sacrifice to go for Theology when you could have Gunpowder or Metal Casting or Steam Power instead.
Uranium: You're lucky to get it, and if you do it'll take a while to get Atomic Theory. Odds are that a military player would be on to you before you have two level three techs.
Writing: Military players generally pump out a lot of units, so unless you get a load of spies you really won't be able to hinder them that much.

I think the most reliable way to defend yourself is to just get other players to help you out. To be safe, culture or economy players should also build a few barracks early game too. The other methods you mentioned aren't very reliable, as they require specific techs that culture/economy players may be reluctant to get (Mathematics, Communism, Ballistics, Animal Husbandry, Biology, Theology, Monarchy).
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Timothy Pride
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Communism is the way. Spies are easily found, especially if you're going for culture. And again, you probably only need to hold it for about 3 turns (if you can't win by then, then probably something's wrong with your city build).

If you've found one, don't use it for trivial things such as pottery. Keep it until late game. If you don't you could always try to get it by haggle with other players.
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Olav Riediger
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beric77 wrote:
savantt wrote:
beric77 wrote:
Smuggler wrote:
Also there are some culture cards that are very usefull to keep large armys away, disorientation and desertion comes to mind (don't have the cards infront of me so the names might not be 100% correct).


Since culture cards are randomly drawn, it's not certaint that you will have in your hands when you need them.So ok, could help IF you lucky enough to get a hand of useful defending cards...


Whilst this is true to an extent, if you're going for culture, then you'll be drawing quite a large number of culture cards. The chances of getting none that will give a millitary player pause for thought are quite low. (Especially with the expansion.)


True , but shit happens In some games i played where i was ahead in culture (3 spaces from victory in the best case) i just see one of these cards that eliminate an opponent flag. Anyway i accept that it could be only bad luck.



Well, we had a game in which I was the aggressor and tried to win by military. I failed exactly because the opponent went cultural und scattered my figures all across the board. No matter what I tried I couldn't get to his capital. He didn't bother researching better technologies for military purposes, but boosted his cultural advancement and won that match. It was a bit frustrating for me, but I think that's quite normal for an aggressor if he can't blast away what his weapons are build for... ;-)

Cheers,
Olav
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Ricardo Donoso
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Mysticism is great to deal with a military agressor until help comes your way.

Unless you are playing 1-1, in this case I agree military is too strong.
 
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Nicola Leonardi
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Yes the point is that you need help from other players to survive a military player. I don't think this game is suitable for 2 players (pretty boring) and i will consider onlu 4ppl games.
You can't rely on any tech to face a military opponent, bucause he's supposed to have the same tech for military strentgth. The only thing you can do is to keep his army scattered and freezed with your culture cards. And this only if you plan to go culture, because if you focus on economy (that it seems to me a total useless and slow strategy) or technology i will be very glad to know HOW to play in order to have a 1% chance to survive. Even if the military player can't take your capital fast, he could destroy your normal cities, looting you to death and leaving your big empire only a city and few resources.
I tried to figure out some measures (house rules) to help out and maybe i have some interesting ideas, but i wanna try before share with you guys.
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Duke Drizzt
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beric77 wrote:

I don't think is a good idea, since you also have to face losses, and if you have many cards above 6, probably YOU are the military leader or the second one... If you attack an enemy that has 5 flags, and let's say 12 cards, with your army of 2 flags (since you are not military i dont'think you will waste resources to make more) is a 5 vs 11 fight that, in the best case could kill 2 opponent forces and 3/4 of yours, leaving your city even more defenceless...
You can't herass more powerful military players unless you get help from other players, i think. On your own, you only have to wait and hope nobody foucuses his anger on you.


So it sounds like to me that u guys are just timid and play too passive. When it's pretty obvious that ppl are going for a military vic others should form alliances to stall them. Remember that with the upgraded units comes the upgraded price to accrue the more powerful units. Plus, fortify your defenses! Build walls, barracks, etc. to give u that big combat bonus. I have yet to get the expansion which i really wanna play but think economic is the easiest way to victory. Military has only won a handful of times. Stand up to the "bullies", where there's great risk there's also great reward.
 
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Nicola Leonardi
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DukeDrizzt wrote:
beric77 wrote:

I don't think is a good idea, since you also have to face losses, and if you have many cards above 6, probably YOU are the military leader or the second one... If you attack an enemy that has 5 flags, and let's say 12 cards, with your army of 2 flags (since you are not military i dont'think you will waste resources to make more) is a 5 vs 11 fight that, in the best case could kill 2 opponent forces and 3/4 of yours, leaving your city even more defenceless...
You can't herass more powerful military players unless you get help from other players, i think. On your own, you only have to wait and hope nobody foucuses his anger on you.


So it sounds like to me that u guys are just timid and play too passive. When it's pretty obvious that ppl are going for a military vic others should form alliances to stall them. Remember that with the upgraded units comes the upgraded price to accrue the more powerful units. Plus, fortify your defenses! Build walls, barracks, etc. to give u that big combat bonus. I have yet to get the expansion which i really wanna play but think economic is the easiest way to victory. Military has only won a handful of times. Stand up to the "bullies", where there's great risk there's also great reward.


seriously, in my experience i haven't seen a single time the chance for an economic victory. How may i play to win by coins? it's not trolling, just asking how to setup my strategy in early play , what buildings and tech to buy, etc.
 
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Maxim Maltsev
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beric77 wrote:

seriously, in my experience i haven't seen a single time the chance for an economic victory. How may i play to win by coins? it's not trolling, just asking how to setup my strategy in early play , what buildings and tech to buy, etc.


Here http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/724210/broken-strategy
This is complete description how to win economicaly. Fctually author thinks that economy is broken and militarily you could not win over it.
 
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Ricardo Donoso
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Again, you can't just ask for a tech to stop a military player.

To have a chance of military win, one must develop at least 4 techs, devote to harvest iron at least 2-3 times, build barracks and buy military units.

So, you CAN mix your game so that you have a good defense, building walls, 3 to 5 extra units and a couple of barracks and investing on military complex should be enough.

And don't forget that economic win comes very quick, a LOT of times I saw an economic victory by a doomed players, that if failed to win that turn wouldn't last to the end of next turn.
 
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Ricardo Donoso
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Also, trhee player games are very good!
 
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Moved to Strategy
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beric77 wrote:
Yes the point is that you need help from other players to survive a military player. I don't think this game is suitable for 2 players (pretty boring) and i will consider onlu 4ppl games.
You can't rely on any tech to face a military opponent, bucause he's supposed to have the same tech for military strentgth. The only thing you can do is to keep his army scattered and freezed with your culture cards. And this only if you plan to go culture, because if you focus on economy (that it seems to me a total useless and slow strategy) or technology i will be very glad to know HOW to play in order to have a 1% chance to survive. Even if the military player can't take your capital fast, he could destroy your normal cities, looting you to death and leaving your big empire only a city and few resources.
I tried to figure out some measures (house rules) to help out and maybe i have some interesting ideas, but i wanna try before share with you guys.


tell that to this board couple months ago before Fame and Fortune.

In any case, for me 2P game is stronger for any victory path.
- Military: only focusing your force to one player.
- Economic: since it's the fastest path anyway, lesser people that can harass you is better.
- Culture: It's better because now you can target one player with all of your cards. And with expansion, Great People will be more useful.

Tech is not supposed to be victory path (unless you're Russian). Just consider it as game clock to make the game end eventually. I haven't tried strategy based on public education, but I think it still wouldn't reach the same level as other path.

Like Tanone said, try this for economy. Oh and, don't let him take Hanging Gardens. Try to take it yourself.
 
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I have played many four player games. I have seen that even though military victory is awesome and economic victory is boring, but military takes a while and economic is quick and UNSTOPPABLE. Honestly military is my preferred but I usually lose to someone who goes economic, because it is quick and you cant do much to stop them.
 
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