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Subject: The Tyranny of the Cards rss

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Daniel Kearns
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The tyranny of the cards.
The cards will force you to do things you don't want to do.
Make the best of what you have.

Ah, the tokens though.
The tokens, they are your freedom and salvation.
Use them wisely and turn weakness to strength.
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Patar Absurdus the Shananigator
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"what you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response, were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought.
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I think some of the reviewers who only play a few times miss this point. The cards may make this seem like all luck but its like Catan, the first few placements make a huge difference. If you get the right special abilities you can go really far!
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Dion Baxter
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True.

Play the odds. See what areas have been played (before the first shuffle) and you can see what the chance of that card turning up will be.
Will its imminent arrival be a benefit to you or your opponent?

After 12 plays, my family have some identified some clever strategies and discovered that this game is far deeper than some of the knee jerk reviews suggest. shake

Priority token grab for me is the Oracle followed closely by the Tavern then the Harbour and Paddock. Love those tokens!
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LotB 2002
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guys, guys,

the OP wrote a piece of poetry in its post.
in stead of recognizing it, keep quite and applaud,
you start talking about dept and strategy.

read the OP aloud, it is worth it.
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Dion Baxter
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Hexagonal fun
Plenty to be had when you
Ignore poor reviews
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Roger Howell
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Redward wrote:
I think some of the reviewers who only play a few times miss this point. The cards may make this seem like all luck but its like Catan, the first few placements make a huge difference. If you get the right special abilities you can go really far!


I am a fairly new player to this game (and loving it the more I play and realize it's deeper than I thought.) Would you suggest going for the castles first or the location tiles. In our 2 player games tonight, I went for the castles first (if they were in good spots) and my opponent went straight for the location tiles first. He won 3 out of 4 games!

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Russ Williams
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rogerramjet3361 wrote:
Would you suggest going for the castles first or the location tiles.

As in most such games, I think it usually makes sense to first increase your power (by going for location tiles) before you increase your points (by going for castles).

As usual there are exceptions (e.g. if the castle is in a great location giving quick access to several locations or gives a lot of points e.g. by being a capital next to mountains when Miners and Workers are a goal, etc).
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Angelo Nikolaou
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rogerramjet3361 wrote:
Redward wrote:
I think some of the reviewers who only play a few times miss this point. The cards may make this seem like all luck but its like Catan, the first few placements make a huge difference. If you get the right special abilities you can go really far!


I am a fairly new player to this game (and loving it the more I play and realize it's deeper than I thought.) Would you suggest going for the castles first or the location tiles. In our 2 player games tonight, I went for the castles first (if they were in good spots) and my opponent went straight for the location tiles first. He won 3 out of 4 games!

As Russ said, it depends on the setup and the strategic decisions you make when you first see the setup.

For example, I played an amazing game where a friend placed his first houses away from locations, but very close to spots with water and mountains (with Fishermen and Miners in play). He actually got a location at his 4th-5th turn without a rush. He ended second with a small difference from the first.

His play opened my eyes in strategies I never considered
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Mike Stevens
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I got my first win in Kingdom Builder tonight in a 4-player game by getting 4 Locations on my first 5 turns. I used all 4 Locations on every single turn and had all my Settlements on the board while the other players had 9, 9 , and 10 Settlements left that they didnt get to play. The scoring cards were Workers, Citizens, and Knights. I had the most points from each of the scoring cards and had a pretty easy win. This is a great game.
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Angelo Nikolaou
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Omahavice wrote:
had all my Settlements on the board while the other players had 9, 9 , and 10 Settlements left that they didnt get to play.
That happens when many of the locations place new settlements. If that happens, it is an arms race to get enough locations to compete with the player with the most locations.

The example I made above had 3 locations that moved and the location that placed a fourth in a row. It was a perfect setup for the unintuitive strategy he followed
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Patar Absurdus the Shananigator
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"what you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response, were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought.
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rogerramjet3361 wrote:
Redward wrote:
I think some of the reviewers who only play a few times miss this point. The cards may make this seem like all luck but its like Catan, the first few placements make a huge difference. If you get the right special abilities you can go really far!


I am a fairly new player to this game (and loving it the more I play and realize it's deeper than I thought.) Would you suggest going for the castles first or the location tiles. In our 2 player games tonight, I went for the castles first (if they were in good spots) and my opponent went straight for the location tiles first. He won 3 out of 4 games!



Going after location tiles first would rarely be a bad idea. The quicker you can power up your options early on the better. Not only that but selecting the right power in the right way early can make a big difference. Sometimes you can set yourself up to get 4-5 powers in 2-3 turns. When you can pull that off it is likely that you will win. In my experience
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Greg Jones
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More specifically, distinguish between at least two types of locations: those that give you more houses and those that give you more flexibility. The latter are the ones that really help to mitigate luck of the card draw, though the former will often help you more if you have perfect luck. Flowers are useless to you? Play Paddock and shift a building to touch a different flower patch, that might be more useful.

The Paddock is probably the best boost to your flexibility, even though it can't move a great distance.

The Tavern is also very good. You still have to build adjacent, but you can often do it in the direction of your choice irrespective of terrain.

The Harbor and the Barn also give you some flexibility. They limit you to a terrain type and building adjacent like most bonuses, but their requirement to remove an existing house is ironically what gives you flexibility. Want to start in a new desert, but oops, you already played next to one? No problem; remove that house, then play the desert.

The Tower is a little bit more flexible than normal placement or Farm or Oasis, because at least you can make steady progress across multiple terrain types. But you can only do so in two directions. But since you can plan ahead, you can usually make those directions work for you.

Farm and Oasis are flexible at the start, but eventually you usually find yourself playing in the same old few places.

Oasis adds pretty much no flexibility. It is just as dependent on luck of the card draw as your normal actions.
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Redward wrote:
I think some of the reviewers who only play a few times miss this point. The cards may make this seem like all luck but its like Catan, the first few placements make a huge difference. If you get the right special abilities you can go really far!


Actually, this was very obvious after only one play.
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Mike S.
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Also some special abbilities that can be be very usefull with some cards, can be useless with other cards.
 
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Redward wrote:
rogerramjet3361 wrote:
[q="Redward"]I think some of the reviewers who only play a few times miss this point. The cards may make this seem like all luck but its like Catan, the first few placements make a huge difference. If you get the right special abilities you can go really far!


Going after location tiles first would rarely be a bad idea. The quicker you can power up your options early on the better. Not only that but selecting the right power in the right way early can make a big difference.


In general, locations that allow you to place an extra house on the board are preferable to those that allow you to move on existing house. This is because if you can place all of your tiles, and keep your opponents from doing so, you will have one key advantage over them in that you should have more scoring capabilities than them.

However, there are cases where Paddock (move two spaces in a line) is extremely valuable to move across the board faster than other movement types, and especially to create separation between your settlements if the Hermits are in play.
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Matt E
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culturevulture wrote:
In general, locations that allow you to place an extra house on the board are preferable to those that allow you to move on existing house. This is because if you can place all of your tiles, and keep your opponents from doing so, you will have one key advantage over them in that you should have more scoring capabilities than them.

However, there are cases where Paddock (move two spaces in a line) is extremely valuable to move across the board faster than other movement types, and especially to create separation between your settlements if the Hermits are in play.

I used to think this, but I'm not so sure anymore. Depending on the scoring conditions, movement abilities can be much more powerful than building ones. It's still not wise to all far behind any opponent in building power, but you can have a mild building disadvantage and still come out ahead thanks to better mobility.
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Patar Absurdus the Shananigator
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LastFootnote wrote:
culturevulture wrote:
In general, locations that allow you to place an extra house on the board are preferable to those that allow you to move on existing house. This is because if you can place all of your tiles, and keep your opponents from doing so, you will have one key advantage over them in that you should have more scoring capabilities than them.

However, there are cases where Paddock (move two spaces in a line) is extremely valuable to move across the board faster than other movement types, and especially to create separation between your settlements if the Hermits are in play.

I used to think this, but I'm not so sure anymore. Depending on the scoring conditions, movement abilities can be much more powerful than building ones. It's still not wise to all far behind any opponent in building power, but you can have a mild building disadvantage and still come out ahead thanks to better mobility.


I agree. One is not inherently better than another. Each house only has value if it is able to impact a scoring condition. 40 houses worth 1.5 points are worse than 31 houses worth 2 point. Movement abilities can increase point average better than placement abilities on occasion. placement abilities can be amazing in the right circumstances as well of course.
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Redward wrote:
LastFootnote wrote:
culturevulture wrote:
In general, locations that allow you to place an extra house on the board are preferable to those that allow you to move on existing house. This is because if you can place all of your tiles, and keep your opponents from doing so, you will have one key advantage over them in that you should have more scoring capabilities than them.

However, there are cases where Paddock (move two spaces in a line) is extremely valuable to move across the board faster than other movement types, and especially to create separation between your settlements if the Hermits are in play.

I used to think this, but I'm not so sure anymore. Depending on the scoring conditions, movement abilities can be much more powerful than building ones. It's still not wise to all far behind any opponent in building power, but you can have a mild building disadvantage and still come out ahead thanks to better mobility.


I agree. One is not inherently better than another. Each house only has value if it is able to impact a scoring condition. 40 houses worth 1.5 points are worse than 31 houses worth 2 point. Movement abilities can increase point average better than placement abilities on occasion. placement abilities can be amazing in the right circumstances as well of course.


This is why KB is such an amazing and balanced game. There are so many unique combinations that the strategy changes for every combination and greatly depends on what the other players do.
 
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JeVo wrote:
guys, guys,

the OP wrote a piece of poetry in its post.
in stead of recognizing it, keep quite and applaud,
you start talking about dept and strategy.

read the OP aloud, it is worth it.

Didn't rhyme. Not much symmetry of syllables. Not poetic enough for my tastes.
 
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