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Subject: some questions about fate cards rss

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Frank Otte
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Several questions arose to us about the numbered fated cards:

Number 3, Spades: Are France and Prussia allowed to play reserve cards as "10"?

Number 3, Hearts: What, if Soubise and Hildburghausen are positioned in sectors with the same card color, they are adjacent to enemies, and both fights start with a tie? Additional question: are both generals also restricted when they are the defender in a fight?

Number 4, Spades: Can a reserve played as "11"?

Number 5, Diamonds: What, if Chevert is in a 2-General-Stack, and the other general leaves the stack? Is this allowed? Can Chevert move after that?

Number 7, Hearts: What, if Friedrich, under the restriction of this effect, is in a stack and his player decides to allocate the casualties of a fight all to Friedrich, with the effect, that Friedrich has no armies anymore? Is switching armies within a stack still allowed?

Number 8, Spades: The prussian Generals who "evade", can they conquer an objective city by that?

Number 8, Diamonds: Is it possible to play a reserve as "15"? Gets Friedrich his bonus when within a stack?

Number 12, Hearts: What exactly means "move to west"? We have difficulties to decide, what cities are selectable (for example a city, which lies far to the south but minimal western from the actual city).

 
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Tim Schwarz
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Hermjard wrote:
Number 7, Hearts: What, if Friedrich, under the restriction of this effect, is in a stack and his player decides to allocate the casualties of a fight all to Friedrich, with the effect, that Friedrich has no armies anymore? Is switching armies within a stack still allowed?


It's never allowed to rearrange armies in a stack to "kill" a general, unless there simply aren't enough armies for all the generals to have an army.
 
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Frank Otte
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I know what you mean, this was my first thought, too. But after that, I looked up the rules. If I allocate casualties, I don't rearrange armies. There is nothing in the rules which forbids to allocate casualties in such a way that it brings a general to zero, while other generals in the same stack still have armies. The rules just say, that afterwards I must immediately transfer, if possible, one army to that general, to avoid, that he leaves the board. But if that is not allowed because of the effect of the card (golden rule: card rules break normal rules), it should nevertheless leave the board?
 
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Anton Telle
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Number 3, Spades: No.

Number 3, Hearts: Hildburghausen attacks first. Soubise cannot move adjacent to an enemy general. Soubise is not restricted, if Hildi was only a defender.

Number 4, Spades: Yes.

Number 5, Diamonds: No.

Number 7, Hearts: Yes. It even is a must. See Chapter 6, Paragraph 5.

Number 8, Spades: No. Generals can only conquer if it is their nations turn.

Number 8, Diamonds: Yes. Yes.

Number 12, Hearts: I think your example is valid. We would allow any city, as long it is more to the west than the city on which Hildi is now.
 
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richard sivel
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PREFACE: These questions obviously refer to the new fatecards of the Anniversary Edition.


Quote:
Number 3, Spades: Are France and Prussia allowed to play reserve cards as "10"?

I guess, you mean clubs, not spades. -- Here the answer is: A reserve can only be played as 1 to 9.

Quote:
Number 3, Hearts: What, if Soubise and Hildburghausen are positioned in sectors with the same card color, they are adjacent to enemies, and both fights start with a tie? Additional question: are both generals also restricted when they are the defender in a fight?

Note that IA makes her moves and attacks before France does. Suppose, Hildburghausen attacks in hearts. Then, Soubise may not enter attack position which would result in him playing hearts. It does not matter whether one of the combat starts with a tie or not.

Quote:
Number 4, Spades: Can a reserve played as "11"?

Here, a reserve can be played as any value from 1+1 to 10+1, that is from 2 to 11

Quote:
Number 5, Diamonds: What, if Chevert is in a 2-General-Stack, and the other general leaves the stack? Is this allowed? Can Chevert move after that?

Per the rules: A stack moves as one "piece" until a player decides to detach a general. -- That means, it is of no relevance whether Chevert moves actively away, or is passively left behind. This card simply tells you that Chevert may not leave a stack. He must always move with the stack.

Quote:
Number 7, Hearts: What, if Friedrich, under the restriction of this effect, is in a stack and his player decides to allocate the casualties of a fight all to Friedrich, with the effect, that Friedrich has no armies anymore? Is switching armies within a stack still allowed?

This card refers to NEW armies (i.e. recruited armies). This has nothing to do with armies re-allocated to a general. Friedrich may receive armies re-allocated to him from another general he is stacked with.

Quote:
Number 8, Spades: The prussian Generals who "evade", can they conquer an objective city by that?

Again, I guess you mean clubs, not spades. -- For clubs: No, they cannot conquer an objective by that. Conquests are allowed only in the movement and retroactive conquest phase.

Note that the same is true for Card 6, spades as well (Laudon may be repositioned by 1 city).

Quote:
Number 8, Diamonds: Is it possible to play a reserve as "15"? Gets Friedrich his bonus when within a stack?

Here, a reserve has the values from 1+5 to 10+5, so any value from 6 to 15.

Quote:
Number 12, Hearts: What exactly means "move to west"? We have difficulties to decide, what cities are selectable (for example a city, which lies far to the south but minimal western from the actual city).

The city must be more west than north or south. If you find that not strict enough, than choose the city which is 2 away from Hildburghausen's current position AND which is the most western one. Prussia may then move Hildburghausen to this city (but only if it is a legal move, that is: unblocked and the city is empty).


Hope that helps.
 
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Frank Otte
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Yes, your answer is of immense help! Especially number 3, hearts is now much cleary to me: if one of the two generals in question actually plays or wants to play a card, doesn't matter. Already the sectors forbid them to "use" the same card color.

Two events are still not completely clear to me, though:

Number 5, diamonds: If I detach the last "non-Chevert" general from the stack, there is no stack anymore, right? What for example, if I have a stack with 3 generals, general X, general Y and Chevert. Then it seems ok with your ruling to detach X, but not Y anymore, afterwards? Or vice versa? So practically that means, that a stack with Chevert may not dissolved completely in that turn?

Number 7, hearts: If that, what you say is true, and the card effect only affects new armies for Friedrich, but not reallocation within the stack, you can circumvent the complete effect: lets say, general A and Friedrich are in a stack: first reallocate all armies from A to Friedrich, then recruit new armies for A. Repeat these steps, if Friedrich has still not enough armies.



 
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richard sivel
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Quote:
Number 5, diamonds: (...) So practically that means, that a stack with Chevert may not dissolved completely in that turn?

Correct.

Quote:
Number 7, hearts: If that, what you say is true, and the card effect only affects new armies for Friedrich, but not reallocation within the stack, you can circumvent the complete effect: lets say, general A and Friedrich are in a stack: first reallocate all armies from A to Friedrich, then recruit new armies for A. Repeat these steps, if Friedrich has still not enough armies.


Tricky! However, I think that reallocating a freshly recruited army to Friedrich is still a recruited army for him.

I would rule it that way: If Friedrich and and, let's say Winterfeldt are stacked, with 4 and 2 troops respectively, then you can reallocate 1 from Winterfeldt to Friedrich and then recruit up to 7 for Winterfeldt. You can then not reallocate troops to Friedrich until the end of the current movement phase.

Note that this is of course only possible if Friedrich is in a stack.
 
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Frank Otte
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Thanks again for your quick reply! The solution for number 7, hearts sounds absolutely reasonable, I understand that much better now. I assume then, because you explicitely mention the movement phase, that afterwards, especially regarding casualties, reallocation is freely possible again.

Just to confirm, because I expressed myself somehow ambiguous: Under the effect of number 5, diamonds, if Chevert is in a stack with 3 generals, I can detach one general (not Chevert of course), but not the second non-Chevert general. And if Chevert is in a stack with only two generals (him included) I can detach none of the generals. Right?
 
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Anton Telle
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Number 7, Hearts:
I would have supposed that if Friedrich cannot get any new armies, a whole stack (of which Friedrich would be the commanding officer) cannot get any armies.
 
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Frank Otte
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rsivel wrote:
Quote:
Number 5, diamonds: (...) So practically that means, that a stack with Chevert may not dissolved completely in that turn?

Correct.

Quote:
Number 7, hearts: If that, what you say is true, and the card effect only affects new armies for Friedrich, but not reallocation within the stack, you can circumvent the complete effect: lets say, general A and Friedrich are in a stack: first reallocate all armies from A to Friedrich, then recruit new armies for A. Repeat these steps, if Friedrich has still not enough armies.


Tricky! However, I think that reallocating a freshly recruited army to Friedrich is still a recruited army for him.

I would rule it that way: If Friedrich and and, let's say Winterfeldt are stacked, with 4 and 2 troops respectively, then you can reallocate 1 from Winterfeldt to Friedrich and then recruit up to 7 for Winterfeldt. You can then not reallocate troops to Friedrich until the end of the current movement phase.


Why isn't it possible in your example, that Winterfeld gives Friedrich one army, recruits 7 armies and gives Friedrich one additional army? No rules a violated: every general has at least one army all the time and Friedrich got only armies, which weren't recruited the same movement phase?
 
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Frank Otte
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Quote:
Again, I guess you mean clubs, not spades. -- For clubs: No, they cannot conquer an objective by that. Conquests are allowed only in the movement and retroactive conquest phase.

Note that the same is true for Card 6, spades as well (Laudon may be repositioned by 1 city).


Still, there seem to be differences between card 6, spades und card 8, clubs: card 8 says "empty city" while card 6 says only "city". So assume Laudon can for example eliminate trains and join stacks, while the evading prussian generals with card 8, clubs cannot.
 
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richard sivel
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Quote:
Still, there seem to be differences between card 6, spades und card 8, clubs: card 8 says "empty city" while card 6 says only "city". So assume Laudon can for example eliminate trains and join stacks, while the evading prussian generals with card 8, clubs cannot.


I did not say that both cards have the same effect. -- I just wanted to point out that with both cards no conquests are possible.

 
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richard sivel
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-toni- wrote
Quote:
Number 7, Hearts:
I would have supposed that if Friedrich cannot get any new armies, a whole stack (of which Friedrich would be the commanding officer) cannot get any armies.

Basically a good interpretation. But the card does not say that.

Furthermore, there are some problems: Suppose P2 is not stacked with P1, so he can recruit. Then P2 and P1 unite, and P2 can re-allocate armies to P1. -- To make a consistent rule, you would have to forbid that a general who recruited cannot unite with P1.

Another extreme example: P1 and P2 are stacked. The player decides to unstack them and moves P2 to his new position. There he recruits. After moving some other pieces, the player changes his decision, and unites P1 and P2 again. -- How do you want to forbid that?

----------------------
Hermjard wrote:
Quote:
Why isn't it possible in your example, that Winterfeld gives Friedrich one army, recruits 7 armies and gives Friedrich one additional army? No rules a violated: every general has at least one army all the time and Friedrich got only armies, which weren't recruited the same movement phase?


Correct. That would be possible, too.

----------------------

CONCLUSION: The effect of this card is not very precise, I guess. (Funny, through all the years there was never a problem.) Maybe the best would be to change the effect to "No prussian general may recruit". Would that be a too harsh effect??


 
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Frank Otte
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rsivel wrote:

CONCLUSION: The effect of this card is not very precise, I guess. (Funny, through all the years there was never a problem.) Maybe the best would be to change the effect to "No prussian general may recruit". Would that be a too harsh effect??


I have not enough experience with this game yet, to judge that question. At least, I would think, it would be thematically odd, because only Friedrich has suicidal tendencies, not all prussian generals.

On the other hand, the current ruling for this card effect doesn't insert very well into the current rules, because it add's a concept, which is otherwise unknown to the game Friedrich, namely the concept of history of origin of armies within a stack.Even more, the rules of Friedrich normally explicitely reject this concept, by stating, that armies of a stack in fact constitute a pool for all generals in this stack.


 
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