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Subject: Secret chamber question rss

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Mr Bawn
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I've noticed that Isotropic asks you to reveal Moat and Secret Chamber multiple times for each attack. It feels like a bug, but I'm starting to suspect that it's actually in the rules. Would the following work?

Opponent plays an attack.

I reveal Secret Chamber and draw a Moat and a Copper. I put a Copper and an Estate back on my deck.

I reveal a Moat. I am now unaffected by the attack.

I reveal Secret Chamber. I draw the Copper and Estate that I put there before. I put a Moat and a Secret Chamber back on my deck.
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Brook Gentlestream
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Why would you reveal Secret Chamber multiple times for the same attack? You reveal it in response to the attack. Unless he attacks you again, you couldn't reveal it again to use the effect.
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Jeff Wolfe
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MrBawn wrote:
I've noticed that Isotropic asks you to reveal Moat and Secret Chamber multiple times for each attack. It feels like a bug, but I'm starting to suspect that it's actually in the rules. Would the following work?

Opponent plays an attack.

I reveal Secret Chamber and draw a Moat and a Copper. I put a Copper and an Estate back on my deck.

I reveal a Moat. I am now unaffected by the attack.

I reveal Secret Chamber. I draw the Copper and Estate that I put there before. I put a Moat and a Secret Chamber back on my deck.

What you suggest is legal according to the rules.
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Roberta Yang
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MrBawn wrote:
I've noticed that Isotropic asks you to reveal Moat and Secret Chamber multiple times for each attack. It feels like a bug, but I'm starting to suspect that it's actually in the rules. Would the following work?

Opponent plays an attack.

I reveal Secret Chamber and draw a Moat and a Copper. I put a Copper and an Estate back on my deck.

I reveal a Moat. I am now unaffected by the attack.

I reveal Secret Chamber. I draw the Copper and Estate that I put there before. I put a Moat and a Secret Chamber back on my deck.

This is perfectly legal, and indeed the Moat + Secret Chamber combo is arguably the reason Dominion allows Reactions to be revealed multiple times in response to the same Attack.

lordrahvin wrote:
Why would you reveal Secret Chamber multiple times for the same attack?

Because you might want to use a Moat from the top of your deck and then put it back on top of your deck again, as was explicitly outlined in the opening post.
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Brook Gentlestream
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Quote:
lordrahvin wrote:
Why would you reveal Secret Chamber multiple times for the same attack?

Because you might want to use a Moat from the top of your deck and then put it back on top of your deck again, as was explicitly outlined in the opening post.

I understood the intent, I just don't see how such a thing is possible and don't understand the thought process that assumes that it would be.

Either the card is revealed or or it is not while I am attacking you. If you reveal it, then you get the effect. If it's already revealed while I am attacking you, how could you reveal it again?

Revealing the same card twice at the same time doesn't seem right or possible, in much the same way that trashing a card twice isn't possible even when a throne room or something makes this nearly simultaneous. You can't reveal a revealed card just like you can't trash a trashed card.

The card says "When X happens, then Y". X happened, and then you Yed. You can't just go about Ying all willly-nillie whenever you feel like it, so I don't know how it could be possible to Y an additional time (or two or three) without a corresponding X to happen a 2nd or 3rd time.
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Drew Spencer
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lordrahvin wrote:
Quote:
lordrahvin wrote:
Why would you reveal Secret Chamber multiple times for the same attack?

Because you might want to use a Moat from the top of your deck and then put it back on top of your deck again, as was explicitly outlined in the opening post.

I understood the intent, I just don't see how such a thing is possible and don't understand the thought process that assumes that it would be.


It is counterintuitive, but for what it's worth, this has been authoritatively answered by Donald X., the designer. According to him, you can reveal reaction cards more than once in response to the same triggering event.
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Pater Absurdus
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This makes me want to try a deck that's half attacks and half reactions...
 
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Brook Gentlestream
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banyan wrote:
It is counterintuitive, but for what it's worth, this has been authoritatively answered by Donald X., the designer. According to him, you can reveal reaction cards more than once in response to the same triggering event.


I think it's a bad call, but I'll keep my opinions on this in check and just apologize to the OP for the misinformation and potential thread-jacking.

Thank you for the correction.
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Mr Bawn
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salty53 wrote:

This is perfectly legal, and indeed the Moat + Secret Chamber combo is arguably the reason Dominion allows Reactions to be revealed multiple times in response to the same Attack.


Thanks!
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Kevin Costello
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lordrahvin wrote:

Revealing the same card twice at the same time doesn't seem right or possible, in much the same way that trashing a card twice isn't possible even when a throne room or something makes this nearly simultaneous. You can't reveal a revealed card just like you can't trash a trashed card.


The reason why this is a bad analogy is that after a card is revealed, it returns to your hand. You reveal a moat (show it to everyone) then put it back in your hand. So there's nothing particularly strange about revealing it again, and in fact, from your opponents perspective, its completely indistinguishable from revealing two different copies of moat that happened to be in your hand at the time of the attack.

This is distinctly different from trashing cards. Once cards are trashed, they're trashed. Period.

 
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J
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It's not really counter intuitive. It actually makes pretty good sense when you think about how the game normally works and how careful Donald is when it comes to necessary information in people's hands and no need for an honor system.

Normally no 2 action cards can be played at the same time and there is no instance where two cards are played simultaneously. Also there's no question that you should be able to play all your reaction cards in response to an attack so if you have a secret chamber and a moat in your hand you can be immune and set up the next two cards.

Hence in response to an attack it makes sense that you must reveal the first reaction card, perform it's reaction (fully) than reveal the second reaction card and perform it's reaction (fully) to get the benefit.

The problem with saying that you can only reveal a reaction card once is if the person happens to have more than one copy of the card in his hand and it matters (a la OP's example) you would need a system to assure everyone that you are revealing a different card than the one from before.

This introduces unnecessary headache and would probably need a new rule. This is why reveal a reaction card as many times as you like makes sense. However in the case of cards like Horse Traders with accumulative affects you (Donald) needs to make sure that you can only reveal each copy "once" in response to an attack.
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Pater Absurdus
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I definitely agree with banyan and lordrahvin. This is quite counterintuitive to me (and obviously others as well). It's cool. I am glad that it works this way. But it doesn't make sense at first glance.
 
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Roberta Yang
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lordrahvin wrote:
I think it's a bad call

I'll go tell Donald you've figured out that he misremembered how his game works.
 
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Pater Absurdus
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salty53 wrote:
lordrahvin wrote:
I think it's a bad call

I'll go tell Donald you've figured out that he misremembered how his game works.


Wee ooh, wee ooh, wee ooh... RED ALERT! Sarcasm bomb headed are way captain! devil
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James Newton
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Redward wrote:
I definitely agree with banyan and lordrahvin. This is quite counterintuitive to me (and obviously others as well). It's cool. I am glad that it works this way. But it doesn't make sense at first glance.

I suspect that the reason it seems counterintuitive is because people are being slack about how the cards are played compared to what the rules actually say. This is similar to the business of playing Treasure cards one at a time - prior to Prosperity it didn't matter, now it does but poeple then ask quesitons about "what happens when I play 2 Banks?".

For example, in the case of Moat, I guess that most folk aren't too worried about when it is played or how long it is revealed for. Someone plays a Militia, saying "I play Militia and get 2 coins" and then turns to each other player and says "you have to discard down to 3 cards" - one of those players then reveals a Moat and keeps it revealed even while other players are discarding. This is fine for the case of Moat (or any single Reaction card) and I would not object to anyone playing like this, but it is not strictly correct.

Intrigue Rules wrote:
"Reveal" - when a player reveals a card, he shows a card to all players and then returns it to wherever it came from (unless instructed specifically to put it elsewhere).


Intrigue Additional Rules wrote:
Players may reveal multiple Reaction cards in response to a single event. Each Reaction card is revealed and resolved before another Reaction card is revealed. The second Reaction card can be one that was not initially in hand when the first Reaction card was played.


Once you understand that each Reaction card is revealed in turn, and that revealing includes returning it to the hand, the idea of revealing multiple Reaction cards, and then being able to reveal the same Reaction card more than one is more intuitive.

So the correct order of events (in excruciating detail is):
Player A: Play an Attack card - place it in the play area saying "I play Militia"
Player B: Reveal a Moat card and return it to hand (Player B is now immune)
Player D: Reveal a Secret Chamber - draw 2 cards, return 2 cards, return SC to hand*.
Player D: Reveal a Moat and return it to hand (Player C is now immune)
Player D: Reveal a Secret Chamber - draw 2 cards, return 2 cards, return SC to hand.
Player A: Resolve Militia (Player A gets 2 coins, Player C discards down to 3).

*I think that I have this correct - the rules do say that the Secret Chamber itself can be put back because "it's still in your hand when you reveal it", so I assume that it is still revealed while resolving the Reaction.
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Pater Absurdus
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churchmouse wrote:
I suspect that the reason it seems counterintuitive is because people are being slack about how the cards are played compared to what the rules actually say. This is similar to the business of playing Treasure cards one at a time - prior to Prosperity it didn't matter, now it does but poeple then ask quesitons about "what happens when I play 2 Banks?".


I don't think that is entirely fair. If I think a rule related to a card seems counterintuitive that has nothing to do with how familiar I am with the rule. It's more related to how the rules have evolved and how the text on the cards is written. It is also noteworthy that most rules which are counterintuitive to more people aren't counterintuitive to everyone. Perhaps it has more to do with how we conceptualize the games mechanics. I would say that it is more about perspective then rules slackness.


churchmouse wrote:
Once you understand that each Reaction card is revealed in turn, and that revealing includes returning it to the hand, the idea of revealing multiple Reaction cards, and then being able to reveal the same Reaction card more than one is more intuitive.


Once the rule is explained it is clear how it works and why the design decision was made but I don't think that makes it intuitive because it required explaining. If it were intuitive it would have just made sense and been obvious.

The explanation and effort into it is appreciated by me nonetheless.
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Edward
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Well the rules haven't evolved at all. It's just that people create mental shortcuts and summaries of the rules, because the rules are unnecessarily precise about issues that have only recently started to matter.

This is why it helps if you are explicitly clear about how everything works from the get-go. I always correct people who announce that they have "8 Gold" to spend, or who refer to Throne Room as "doubling" a card. It may seem harmless now, but it causes serious problems later on.
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Brett
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banyan wrote:
lordrahvin wrote:
Quote:
lordrahvin wrote:
Why would you reveal Secret Chamber multiple times for the same attack?

Because you might want to use a Moat from the top of your deck and then put it back on top of your deck again, as was explicitly outlined in the opening post.

I understood the intent, I just don't see how such a thing is possible and don't understand the thought process that assumes that it would be.


It is counterintuitive, but for what it's worth, this has been authoritatively answered by Donald X., the designer. According to him, you can reveal reaction cards more than once in response to the same triggering event.


Can you tell me where this is so I can print it out to show others when I do it?

Thanks
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Edward
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I think it's even in one of the rulebooks. He talked about it in a forum post a while ago.
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theory wrote:
Well the rules haven't evolved at all. It's just that people create mental shortcuts and summaries of the rules, because the rules are unnecessarily precise about issues that have only recently started to matter.


There are new rules as time goes by. That is what I meant by the rules evolving. I assume that the rules that Donald intends to publish haven't changed or been amended in a significant way but the publically known rules have at least grown.
 
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allstar64 wrote:
It's not really counter intuitive. It actually makes pretty good sense when you think about how the game normally works and how careful Donald is when it comes to necessary information in people's hands and no need for an honor system.


The reason it seems counterintuitive to me is that I have no problem with a game having an honor system. It doesn't seem immediately wrong to me for there to be a rule that can potentially be broken with impunity, maybe because I wouldn't want to break rules even if I could get away with it, and I wouldn't want to play with anyone who would.

I understand it, and I'm totally cool with it; it just isn't the first thing I would have thought.
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banyan wrote:
I understand it, and I'm totally cool with it; it just isn't the first thing I would have thought.


Exactly. Why can't we all be right? :-) I have no doubt that the rules let you reveal the reaction multiple times, but its not intuitive. Teach 10 people the basics of Dominion including how reaction cards work and then ask them if they think they can reveal the same reaction card multiple times in response to the same attack.
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theory wrote:
I think it's even in one of the rulebooks. He talked about it in a forum post a while ago.


Thanks!
 
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