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No Retreat! The Russian Front» Forums » Rules

Subject: Supply Example on page 5 and definition of hexes rss

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M. S.
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Hi,

just some newbie questions:

When I look at the example on page 5 there is a line of supply, which is leading over the lake Ladoga.

My questions:

- Lakes are considered as hexes in terms of supply? (text in example: ".....including this large Lake hex").
Meaning the supply path in this example would have 4 intermediate hexes: 1 hex (lake)+1 hex (Soviet Kalinin)+ 2 hexes till the edge. Is this correct? I thought, that only 3 intermediate hexes are allowed.
I`m asking, since a "Lake hex" was never definied before......only those grids on the board....

- Seas are never considered as hexes. Right?!
Meaning: It´s not true that one sea is one big hex.


...and one final question: City supply is only guaranteed, if there are only (!) hexes leding to the west (=NW, W, SW) , isn`t it?! I`m asking, since the main path could lead to the west (in the case of the Germans), whereas one hex of the total path could lead to e.g. NE



Many thanks in advance.

Regards
Mario
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Holger Joist
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Braz wrote:
Hi,
When I look at the example on page 5 there is a line of supply, which is leading over the lake Ladoga.

My questions:

- Lakes are considered as hexes in terms of supply? (text in example: ".....including this large Lake hex").
Meaning the supply path in this example would have 4 intermediate hexes: 1 hex (lake)+1 hex (Soviet Kalinin)+ 2 hexes till the edge. Is this correct? I thought, that only 3 intermediate hexes are allowed.
I`m asking, since a "Lake hex" was never definied before......only those grids on the board....

The unit in Leningrad is in a city that is in supply. City are in supply if they have an unlimited path to a supply source. The four hex limit is only valid for units.

See Supply Question.
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M. S.
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ahhh...good point. You`re completly right. thumbsup
Thanks for that!


But again the question: Lakes are considered as hexes and seas not. Am I right?



 
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Carl Paradis
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Braz wrote:
ahhh...good point. You`re completly right. thumbsup
Thanks for that!


But again the question: Lakes are considered as hexes and seas not. Am I right?





Yes lakes are considered as hexes for supply purposes, and seas are not, this is correct.
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Jan van der Laan
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Braz wrote:
...and one final question: City supply is only guaranteed, if there are only (!) hexes leding to the west (=NW, W, SW) , isn`t it?! I`m asking, since the main path could lead to the west (in the case of the Germans), whereas one hex of the total path could lead to e.g. NE

Your second question seems to be overlooked. But your assumption is correct. The supply route network lies West of the cities for the Axis and East of the cities for the Soviets. A supply route cannot "bend back" in the opposite direction for either of the players.

Edit: typo.
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M. S.
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thanks to all of you for the feedback.

Ok, then it`s clear for me.

Regards
Mario
 
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Steven
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Just to add another random bit of info Mario:

Although supply cannot be "traced" across seas and they are not considered one giant hex, some seas do provide special supply for the units of opposing sides. This means that units that are in a hex which touches the sea are considered to be in supply (for detraining or supply purposes), but since it is not normal supply, they cannot trace it to another unit which touches there hex.

The Baltic sea always provides supply for the Axis, but only supply for the Russians if Leningrad is supplied and controlled (I think). Black sea always keeps both sides units in special supply and the Caspian Sea can keep Russian units (only) in supply. Sea of Azov is ignored by both sides.

I also remember Carl stating that the hex just has to touch the sea. Specifically the marsh hex north of Sevastopol whose western tip touches the Black Sea, but is surrounded by two hexes that are also on the Black Sea.

Typically this allows the Sevastapol to hold out in 1942 against the Germans or the Germans to hold out in 1943-45. Or forcing the Germans to take Riga by force if they are unlucky during the first attack.
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Carl Paradis
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Braz wrote:
thanks to all of you for the feedback.

Ok, then it`s clear for me.

Regards
Mario


By the way, just for the historical record:

Some wargames about the Russian campaign put Leningrad "Out Of Supply" until Lake Ladoga frozes over, while in fact it was FAR EASIER to supply the city when the lake was NOT FROZEN, using small ships! There is nothing more effective at carrying huge loads economically & effectively then ships, the only limitation/vulnerablity is the Port/Docking facilities; and this Leningrad had an ample amount. In fact the docks there had the highest Anti-Aircraft gun density of the whole Eastern Front.

The Critial moment was in late 1941, when the lake started to froze over: the ice was not yet solid to allow vehicles to pass through, but solid enough to stop shipping. When it was set in, heck, then they even put a few rail lines on it!!! surprise
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Harald Torvatn
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Another interesting fact:

In 1930, the Finns build a submarine to operate in Lake ladoga.

After construction, it turned out that the submaine was seriously overweight. (It was designed as 100 tons, but eventually was 142.)

As the finns and the soviets had a treaty limiting warships on lake ladoga to 100 tonns, the finns decided to not annoy their neighbor by operating a warship much larger than alowed by the treaty, and used it in the baltic instead.

I dont know wheter a single small submarine would have been enough to block supply (in summer), but it would certainly have been anoying.
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Carl Paradis
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Harald wrote:
Another interesting fact:

In 1930, the Finns build a submarine to operate in Lake ladoga.

After construction, it turned out that the submaine was seriously overweight. (It was designed as 100 tons, but eventually was 142.)

As the finns and the soviets had a treaty limiting warships on lake ladoga to 100 tonns, the finns decided to not annoy their neighbor by operating a warship much larger than alowed by the treaty, and used it in the baltic instead.

I dont know wheter a single small submarine would have been enough to block supply (in summer), but it would certainly have been anoying.


Indeed!

In fact I almost decided to talk about this in my previous message.

BTW it would now have blocked supply at all, Most of the ship crossing were a bit too small to be targets, or were the huge Soviet flat-bottomed barge kind, that was almost unsinkable anyway.
 
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Alex
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only today I realized how much of the Info i got is not exactly true...

Many things widlely believed in, are simply not true

This war was 70 years ago... now imagine how accurate the hostory of ancient wars is!?

lol...
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Carl Paradis
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GangZda wrote:
only today I realized how much of the Info i got is not exactly true...

Many things widlely believed in, are simply not true

This war was 70 years ago... now imagine how accurate the hostory of ancient wars is!?

lol...


Very True.

But in the case of the German-Russian WW2 Front/War, the more time passes, the more accurate a picture we get, thanks to the opening of the Soviet archives and the lessening of the Allied/German/Russian propaganda over time.

After the making of this game, and the humongous amount of research I did, here is a few things I concluded:

- This was a really, really close fight.
- The Soviets did quite a lot of mistakes, especially early on.
- The Germans did a lot of mistakes too, and all the time.
- The German Army was really the better one, Operationally.
- The Soviets could not have won as they did without Allied help.
- Rusian Casualties vs German were on the order of 6:1.
- War is Hell.
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Alex
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licinius wrote:

- War is Hell.


especialy that one... very true!
 
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Kev.
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SW_Cygnus wrote:
Just to add another random bit of info Mario:

Although supply cannot be "traced" across seas and they are not considered one giant hex, some seas do provide special supply for the units of opposing sides. This means that units that are in a hex which touches the sea are considered to be in supply (for detraining or supply purposes), but since it is not normal supply, they cannot trace it to another unit which touches there hex.

The Baltic sea always provides supply for the Axis, but only supply for the Russians if Leningrad is supplied and controlled (I think). Black sea always keeps both sides units in special supply and the Caspian Sea can keep Russian units (only) in supply. Sea of Azov is ignored by both sides.

I also remember Carl stating that the hex just has to touch the sea. Specifically the marsh hex north of Sevastopol whose western tip touches the Black Sea, but is surrounded by two hexes that are also on the Black Sea.

Typically this allows the Sevastapol to hold out in 1942 against the Germans or the Germans to hold out in 1943-45. Or forcing the Germans to take Riga by force if they are unlucky during the first attack.



Help me understand what you are saying here about supply in regards to the 2 cities in the image. How is Sevastapol different than Novorosslyk?
If I place a Axis unit in the marsh Sevastapol is out of supply for Soviets yes?

If as the Axis player I have units adjacent to Novo - they are still out of supply - no tracing supply across the seas of Azov/Black Sea? We had this come up and I must admit to not knowing the rules well here, and trying to play at a finer level of detail really hurt my cause when it came to sea and lake based supply trace and the timing of supply checks for surrender.
 
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Ryan Nip
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In both of your examples, the city is unsupplied but not the unit in it.
The units in Sevastopol and Novorossiysk can use the Black Sea as an Alternate Supply Source [6.2]
 
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