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Subject: Card idea: what should it cost and what should it be called? rss

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Pater Absurdus
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I love Throne Room and King's Court. The problem was I couldn't think of a good way to add more cards like them to the sets. Then it occurred to me that Golem is actually a fairly similar card. So what if they were mixed?

Poll
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 2 Action cards other than Golem Cards or this card. Choose one, discard the other cards, then play it 2 times.
  Your Answer   Vote Percent Vote Count
3
0.0% 0
4
0.0% 0
5
24.2% 8
6
30.3% 10
7
45.5% 15
Voters 33
This poll is now closed.   33 answers
Poll created by Redward
Closes: Fri Jun 1, 2012 6:00 am


Poll
Should there be more powerful versions as well?
Yes
No
Other (answer Below)
      34 answers
Poll created by Redward


Poll
If it has more powerful versions, what should they be?
  Your Answer   Vote Percent Vote Count
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 2 Action cards other than Golem Cards or this card. Choose one, discard the other cards, then play it 3 times.
20.0% 2
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 3 Action cards other than Golem Cards or this card. Choose one, discard the other cards, then play it 2 times.
50.0% 5
Other (details below).
30.0% 3
Voters 10
This poll is now closed.   10 answers
Poll created by Redward
Closes: Fri Jun 1, 2012 6:00 am


Also, what should the card be called?
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Fred Snertz
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I don't think its workable to have one card specifically mention another card. What if a future set has another card similar to Golem?
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Pater Absurdus
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shrimple wrote:
I don't think its workable to have one card specifically mention another card. What if a future set has another card similar to Golem?


Okay, so we can't worry about problems like that because that kills the fun...
 
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Jason
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Redward wrote:
Also, what should the card be called?


How about Royal Decree?

Not to divert the thread from your card, but I think if I were going for a Throne Room plus, it would be more like "Reveal the top five cards of your deck. You may choose a revealed action card. If you do, play it twice. Discard the other cards." I think this would require more thoughtful decisions and reward risk because there is no guarantee of an action being revealed.
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Pater Absurdus
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binaryeye wrote:
Redward wrote:
Also, what should the card be called?


How about Royal Decree?

Not to divert the thread from your card, but I think if I were going for a Throne Room plus, it would be more like "Reveal the top five cards of your deck. You may choose a revealed action card. If you do, play it twice. Discard the other cards." I think this would require more thoughtful decisions and reward risk because there is no guarantee of an action being revealed.


I love the name Royal Decree and think that your version would be really interesting as well!
 
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Derek Whaley
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I too like the name Royal Decree, but I don't like the wording on the card and I propose a slight change in the description. First, the change:

"Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 2 Action cards other than this card. Choose one and play it twice. Discard the other cards, then play it 2 times."

My proposed change:
"Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 2 Action cards other than this card. Choose one and play it twice. Trash the other Action card. Discard the other cards."

I feel this would bring down the cost of the card since it's a trasher now, but it would also make the choice a bit more serious. On the other hand, it could really help in getting rid of crappy Actions and cycling decks late in the game. Win/Win.
 
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Whaleyland wrote:
I too like the name Royal Decree, but I don't like the wording on the card and I propose a slight change in the description. First, the change:

"Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 2 Action cards other than this card. Choose one and play it twice. Discard the other cards, then play it 2 times."

My proposed change:
"Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 2 Action cards other than this card. Choose one and play it twice. Trash the other Action card. Discard the other cards."

I feel this would bring down the cost of the card since it's a trasher now, but it would also make the choice a bit more serious. On the other hand, it could really help in getting rid of crappy Actions and cycling decks late in the game. Win/Win.


Why would you buy crappy actions? That is a card I would never buy.
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Derek Whaley
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Whaleyland wrote:
I feel this would bring down the cost of the card since it's a trasher now, but it would also make the choice a bit more serious. On the other hand, it could really help in getting rid of crappy Actions and cycling decks late in the game. Win/Win.


That's why I would buy this card. Make it cost 3 or 4. Cheap. Cleans out unwanted Action cards from earlier in the game. There is a risk, but that's why you make the card cheap. Plus, it's still a Throne Room.
 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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That's a pretty harsh down-side. Actions are only ever in your deck because you chose to put them there and cost you time, money, opportunity to get something else. Exceptions are Action cards gained via Masquerade and Ambastard and they almost exclusively deal in passing around Coppers, Curses, and Estates (... although, it is fun to pass Potions around when there is nothing to buy with them but Herbalist or Apprentice are in the mix). Jester is a outside-curb case because it can only give you Action cards that you already bought (as attacked player) or want (as attacking player) but you might not want so many of them.

The only Action cards that you want to see trashed are those that have outlived their worth: Lookout, Moneylender, Chapel (etc) after enough trashing and maybe something that you bought for the monetary boost that you don't intend to use forever (Bureaucrat, Woodcutter, Workshop) but even these would only be bought if you had more long-term use for them, like Remodel targets or late-game extra Buy/gains. Otherwise, Silver works just as well. If we're to start buying junk Action cards just for something to trash due to the above proposed card, then I think most of the time, it just won't see play and that makes a dull card. Reveal two Action cards and trash one? I vote this one.
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FlatOnHisFace wrote:
(... although, it is fun to pass Potions around when there is nothing to buy with them but Herbalist or Apprentice are in the mix)

This will never happen if you're playing with the rules as written.

Quote:
After you choose 10 Kingdom cards for the Supply, if any of them have (Potion) in the cost, add the Potion pile to the Supply. Also add the Potion pile if you are using the promotional card Black Market, and the Black Market deck includes at least one card with (Potion) in the cost. If you don't have any cards with (Potion) in the cost in the Supply or in the Black Market deck, do not use the Potion pile in this game.

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Mark Judd
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Shouldn't this be in the "Variants" forum with other fan card ideas?
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Emile de Maat
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Moved Thread
Moved this thread from the Dominion General forum to the Dominion Variants forum.
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Pater Absurdus
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Beaveman wrote:
Shouldn't this be in the "Variants" forum with other fan card ideas?


I intended to put this in the Variants forum but I did err... soblue
 
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Shayne Gray
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binaryeye wrote:
Redward wrote:
Also, what should the card be called?


How about Royal Decree?

Not to divert the thread from your card, but I think if I were going for a Throne Room plus, it would be more like "Reveal the top five cards of your deck. You may choose a revealed action card. If you do, play it twice. Discard the other cards." I think this would require more thoughtful decisions and reward risk because there is no guarantee of an action being revealed.


I really like this version.
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Dennison Milenkaya
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jeffwolfe wrote:
FlatOnHisFace wrote:
(... although, it is fun to pass Potions around when there is nothing to buy with them but Herbalist or Apprentice are in the mix)

This will never happen if you're playing with the rules as written.


Ah! Of course. I mentioned Herbalists and Apprentices because I was remembering wrong. This happened when the only Alchemy card pile ran out so I passed Potions out with Ambastards. I mean, come on--there was a reason I had the Potion in my deck in the first place.
 
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Steven Metzger
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I voted 7 because there wasn't 8 or 9 or Potions in the discussion.

This card is a sure-fire Throne Room that hits something that's A) Not in your hand, and B) a card of your choice (of two). Strictly better than Throne Room, and subjectively better than Golem.

I'm not sure I like the card as written - it seems a lot like Golem and Throne Room, with many additional quirks to make it intensely strong.

My actual answer, at first glance, is $3PP.
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Kevin Costello
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metzgerism wrote:
Strictly better than Throne Room


I don't think I like the card either, and I probably agree that it should be costed higher than throne room, but I also think when you throw out a word like "strictly", you better mean it. And this is NOT strictly better than throne room.

A few (important) advantages of throne room:

There are a lot of cases where it makes a HUGE deal exactly which card you throne, especially if you're using it as a pseudo-action splitter. Even with a choice of two, you're often going to wish you could have used it on a card in your hand that would have started a combo rather than one of two random things you pull out of your deck. This becomes more serious when you have some draw, when your hand is likely to have more than 2 possible targets.

Throne rooming a throne room lets you get combos going without ANY source of +action. This card doesn't let you do that. So again, it limits the kind of combos you can do, especially when almost everything else on the table is terminal.

Possibly most importantly, if you have a lot of draw or a trim deck, once you've drawn all your actions, this doesn't do ANYTHING anymore.

Throne room is at its best in my opinion when mixed with draw + deck thinning and gives you reliable control over massive combos. This card is arguably more versatile and requires less planning, but it seems like it would be a lot harder to get the monster turns that throne room can produce.
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Matt N

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Riffing off of Whaleyland's idea, how about a card costing 5 that reads:

Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 2 action cards costing 4 or less other than this card. If you reveal 2 action cards other than this card, choose one and play it three times. Trash any unplayed action cards revealed. Discard the other cards.

The balance seems pretty shady, but I'd like some non-village way to put several of those 2-4 cost actions into play.
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Dennison Milenkaya
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Matt, that is still going to require the trashing of Action cards that you spent time, and opportunity collecting. Unless you can control your deck to the point that you can draw the whole thing up, discard a single Action card, and then play this new card idea for the three-times effect (which makes it a good deal inferior to King's Court), you are going to burn through your other Action cards and have caused so many earlier turns to have been wasted that playing an Action-oriented deck is just not advantageous and a card such as this doesn't fit into an non-Action-oriented deck. In fact, it could be seen as taking all of the work out of building a good Action-oriented deck and short-cutting to a powerful 2 card combo. If Big Money + two Smithies was a boring, moderately powerful deck, Big Money + one of these new cards + one Smithy (or Torturer, or Rabble, or Margrave) becomes a killer. That's not adding complexity and interest.

Kevin, you do make some really good points about how and when Royal Decree could be less desirable than Throne Room, and I know that your point is to refute the use of the term "strictly better" but there is merit to what Steven is saying. Throne Room by itself is a bit of a risk since it does nothing without another Action card and not just another Throne Room. While Throne Room + Throne Room + [Action card] is quite strong, it is also riskier to add more Throne Rooms for the same reason. Sure, there is a point that if you draw all your Action cards and have nothing left to hit with during the revealing stage, this becomes a dead play but it is more likely that this card was used to get as far as drawing up the deck. Furthermore, any card that allows a discard then allows this to become a live play again and if discarding to the top-of-the-deck (Mandarin, Courtyard), a sure hit for Royal Decree. Much as Golems love Ghost Ships, Royal Decree likes 'em twice as much. Probably the main reason why you wouldn't worry about the Royal Decree hitting "some random card" is because there are no random Action cards in your deck. You put them all there. If you built your deck with competence, knowing you'll be using Royal Decrees, you'll simply take care to only include the cards you want. In fact, there is far, far less need to thin your deck out.

Firstly, many trashers require a trashing when played (exceptions include Chapel and Steward, regulars include Transmute, Apprentice, Trade Route, Trading Post, Bishop, Salvager) and including a required trasher is dangerous, even with Golems, but to play such an effect twice is far worse, all of which means thinning the deck is just a bad idea.

Secondly, because you don't want your other Action cards to show up in the hand with Royal Decree, you want clutter to take their place. Especially if that clutter can contribute to your buying power, and that includes a few Coppers. A doubled Action card, if you buy the right stuff for your deck, and a few more coins easily merits a Province.

Thirdly, just like Golem, you draw beyond all the chaff with that one card so getting rid of initial Coppers and Estates or being bogged down by Curses is a non-issue. This means that controlling a deck with Royal Decree is way easier than one with Throne Room. With Throne Room, you need to thin out your deck or you get more hands with Throne Room + nothing.

So, you do make a good point that it isn't better than Throne Room in every situation. It is, however, easily better than Throne Room in most. The biggest difference is that you wouldn't build the same deck for both cards.
 
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Kevin Costello
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Dennison, I agree with everything you said, and also stand by everything I said. "Royal Decree" is generally better than throne room, but not strictly better than throne room... right?

Saying something is strictly better when you really just mean regular better is just like adding the qualifier "literally" in ridiculous places.
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