Recommend
3 
 Thumb up
 Hide
19 Posts

Wargames» Forums » General

Subject: VASSAL on iPad with OnLive? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Andrew Kluck
United States
Hudson
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Prolly should put this in the 'iPad Wargames' thread, but that place is collecting dust. Perhaps someone with far better tech chops than I can tell me if running VASSAL on my iPad will soon be possible.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joel K
United States
Minnetrista
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Via remote desktop? You can--here's one user's reaction to trying it. Others have said it's serviceable, but I suppose it depends on the module. I haven't tried, so I can't vouch for it either way.

Running on your iPad natively? Maybe in some far-flung future if VASSAL 4 is indeed implemented in C++ and someone wants to tackle porting it to Objective C. It won't be any of the primary VASSAL developers though, because they've said repeatedly that none of them have iOS devices with which to do testing.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Doyle
United Kingdom
Hertfordshire
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Onlive is just fancy remote desktop with good video streaming, there is certainly no reason you can't do this. The main problem is VASSAL's interface simply doesn't work that well on the ipad, I've run it through various remote solutions and I can get it to work ok, but it's not 'fun'.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew Kluck
United States
Hudson
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Disappointing. Thanks for your replies.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ryan Powers
United States
Marble
Minnesota
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Note this is secondhand and paraphrased...

I played a game or three with someone who used it that way. His opinion (in my words):

It works well enough if you're playing a game with a lot of small moves and you don't want everyone to wait for you to get back to a "real" computer. His example involved deciding where to retreat in a game so that someone else's turn could resume more quickly.

He did not seem inclined to think it was a good enough general purpose solution. He played *his* turns on his "real" computer. But it did keep the game flowing because other players didn't have to wait as long for him to respond to stuff before continuing their own turns.

YMMV though, and I've never personally tried it.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joel Uckelman
United Kingdom
Durham
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
JoelCFC25 wrote:
Running on your iPad natively? Maybe in some far-flung future if VASSAL 4 is indeed implemented in C++ and someone wants to tackle porting it to Objective C. It won't be any of the primary VASSAL developers though, because they've said repeatedly that none of them have iOS devices with which to do testing.


Last I checked, you can compile C++ for iOS, so no translation to Objective C would be needed.

One way to get this rolling (after we're a bit farther along with V4) would be either for someone with an iPad to volunteer, or for someone to donate an iPad to the development effort (preferably the former, as that ensures that someone motivated is working on it).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ryan Powers
United States
Marble
Minnesota
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
uckelman wrote:
JoelCFC25 wrote:
Running on your iPad natively? Maybe in some far-flung future if VASSAL 4 is indeed implemented in C++ and someone wants to tackle porting it to Objective C. It won't be any of the primary VASSAL developers though, because they've said repeatedly that none of them have iOS devices with which to do testing.


Last I checked, you can compile C++ for iOS, so no translation to Objective C would be needed.

One way to get this rolling (after we're a bit farther along with V4) would be either for someone with an iPad to volunteer, or for someone to donate an iPad to the development effort (preferably the former, as that ensures that someone motivated is working on it).


And how much RAM on a current iPad? The language was irrelevant on the first generation ones, don't think you'd be running VASSAL directly on them anyhow.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joel Uckelman
United Kingdom
Durham
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
keethrax wrote:
And how much RAM on a current iPad? The language was irrelevant on the first generation ones, don't think you'd be running VASSAL directly on them anyhow.

Java forces us to waste an enormous quantity of RAM when working with images. (For certain operations, the wastage is 2-3 times the size of the image data involved.) RAM usage is not an issue with the V4 graphics demo I've written in C++, as we're able to have exactly one copy of image data in main RAM, and even that we can free once it's shipped out to video RAM.

When I run the Afrika II module, which has a fairly large map, in VASSAL 3.1.18, the resident memory is 460MB (plus 130MB for the Module Manager). If I load the same map in my demo, resident memory is 45MB. The demo isn't storing any of the game data that 3.1.18 is, but the game data uses a negligible amount of memory in 3.1. This makes me think that any reasonably modern device will have enough RAM for V4.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ryan Powers
United States
Marble
Minnesota
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
uckelman wrote:


When I run the Afrika II module, which has a fairly large map, in VASSAL 3.1.18, the resident memory is 460MB (plus 130MB for the Module Manager). If I load the same map in my demo, resident memory is 45MB. The demo isn't storing any of the game data that 3.1.18 is, but the game data uses a negligible amount of memory in 3.1. This makes me think that any reasonably modern device will have enough RAM for V4.


Fair enough. I figured you'd make gains, but didn't know how much. The first gen iPads are pretty gimped in the RAM department, and I have no idea how much they actually have available (as opposed to total) for running stuff but I suspect it to be a pretty staggeringly low #.

Even with those gains I have some doubts on the first gen ones. I'm hoping the newer ones are better, which is why I asked, but don't actually know if they are better or not (and if so, by how much).

Side Note: I'm pretty familiar with just how much Java uses for images as the project that was my last employment included doing things like making maps of the US where 1 pixel = 50 square meters in java. Well technically only a complete idiot would ask it to do the whole thing, but it was required to handle that idiotic request by correctly doing it as opposed to by replying "are you nuts?" Each of those pixels was in turn colored by a very complex procedure that made my head spin. Luckily my particular portion of this part of the project simply required making sure the guy doing the image work could get at the data needed, which was easy.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Taylor
United States
Lake Forest
California
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
1st gen iPad has about 100-120MB free out of 256MB total. (Depends on which OS version is installed.)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ryan Powers
United States
Marble
Minnesota
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
anarchy wrote:
1st gen iPad has about 100-120MB free out of 256MB total. (Depends on which OS version is installed.)


I knew the installed amount on the old ones, but not the OS footprint. Any idea regarding the new ones?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Janik-Jones
Canada
Waterloo
Ontario
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Up Front fan | In ancient times cats were worshipped as gods; they have not forgotten this | Combat Commander series fan | The Raven King (game publisher) ... that's me! | Fields of Fire fan
badge
Slywester Janik, awarded the Krzy┼╝ Walecznych (Polish Cross of Valour), August 1944
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
uckelman wrote:
JoelCFC25 wrote:
Running on your iPad natively? Maybe in some far-flung future if VASSAL 4 is indeed implemented in C++ and someone wants to tackle porting it to Objective C. It won't be any of the primary VASSAL developers though, because they've said repeatedly that none of them have iOS devices with which to do testing.


Last I checked, you can compile C++ for iOS, so no translation to Objective C would be needed.

One way to get this rolling (after we're a bit farther along with V4) would be either for someone with an iPad to volunteer, or for someone to donate an iPad to the development effort (preferably the former, as that ensures that someone motivated is working on it).


The issue is that Vassal is written in Java. Vassal 4 would have to be a complete, ground-up rewrite to get it into a language acceptable to Apple (compiled in XCode, btw). Then there's the whole module issue ... Apple already shuts down efforts to by-pass their store to get content into apps without their 30% cut so free game modules you can download via the UI in an iPad Vassal will not go over so well with the Cupertino mothership, I suspect. A Vassal app could simply use the Net as a library/resource to read content (modules), though I suppose.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joel Uckelman
United Kingdom
Durham
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
DaveyJJ wrote:
The issue is that Vassal is written in Java. Vassal 4 would have to be a complete, ground-up rewrite to get it into a language acceptable to Apple (compiled in XCode, btw).


I'm painfully aware that V3 is in Java. V4 is going to be a ground-up rewrite.

Quote:
Then there's the whole module issue ... Apple already shuts down efforts to by-pass their store to get content into apps without their 30% cut so free game modules you can download via the UI in an iPad Vassal will not go over so well with the Cupertino mothership, I suspect. A Vassal app could simply use the Net as a library/resource to read content (modules), though I suppose.


How does this work, exactly? Say I have the app for a newspaper like the NY Times. Am I getting each day's copy of the paper through the app store, then?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ryan Powers
United States
Marble
Minnesota
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
uckelman wrote:

How does this work, exactly? Say I have the app for a newspaper like the NY Times. Am I getting each day's copy of the paper through the app store, then?


Don't expect a useful answer here. The only real answer is they'll change the rules on a a whim to squeeze your if you're not a major player. In theory, according to their rules additional data files like modules should be just fine.

In practice, they bend their own definitions awful hard to shut down apps that use them if they're not getting a cut one way or the other. Since the modules would remain largely free (I presume) they're not getting a cut. I'll give you 3:1 odds on a bet that they'll find a way to use that to pull the app if you're a little guy. This sort of crap is why I abandoned iOS development a while back.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clyde W
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
flag msg tools
Red Team
badge
#YOLO
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In-app purchases at a cost of free is totally allowed, as far as I know.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ryan Powers
United States
Marble
Minnesota
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
clydeiii wrote:
In-app purchases at a cost of free is totally allowed, as far as I know.


Sort of. But what can be included in those without causing your app to be pulled is fuzzy and has been inconsistently interpreted in the past in ways that I don't think VASSAL will like.

In theory, you can't include executable stuff in them. This is probably a decent idea for several reasons.

In practice, they've been known to interpret that *very* broadly on occasion in ways that would make me very, very concerned were I trying to get something like VASSAL onto iPads.

Broadly as in calling purely data containing XML files code as a pretext to pull an app that wasn't violating any policy other than not kicking money back to Apple after the initial purchase because the content was free and in some ways competing with other apps that Apple made money on through their app store.

This information may be somewhat dated. As I've said, I got out of the iOS game some time ago (thus not knowing how much memory is in the newer ones or the OS footprint in the older ones, it was phone stuff when I was developing for it) due to this sort of thing. But I've seen apps bogusly pulled that would work exactly as I imagine VASSAL working on a ipad.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clyde W
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
flag msg tools
Red Team
badge
#YOLO
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
keethrax wrote:
This information may be somewhat dated. As I've said, I got out of the iOS game some time ago (thus not knowing how much memory is in the newer ones or the OS footprint in the older ones, it was phone stuff when I was developing for it) due to this sort of thing. But I've seen apps bogusly pulled that would work exactly as I imagine VASSAL working on a ipad.
It is dated. The App Store has been more lax recently involving interpreted code.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ryan Powers
United States
Marble
Minnesota
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
clydeiii wrote:
keethrax wrote:
This information may be somewhat dated. As I've said, I got out of the iOS game some time ago (thus not knowing how much memory is in the newer ones or the OS footprint in the older ones, it was phone stuff when I was developing for it) due to this sort of thing. But I've seen apps bogusly pulled that would work exactly as I imagine VASSAL working on a ipad.
It is dated. The App Store has been more lax recently involving interpreted code.


Good to know. That's why I made sure to mention that it might be.

It used to be interpreted code of any sort was absolutely verboten if it didn't come through their store. And worse they would occasionally stretch that to it's breaking point to include stuff that was in no way interpreted code for some pretty slimy reasons.

Don't know why they changed, but its good to hear they did. Maybe it's a function of having been able to get away with a lot more when they wre more or less the only game in town. I dunno. Personally, I'll stick to android apps now though (fool me once...). But that doesn't mean I don't hope someone can get some reasonable form of VASSAL on iOS machines. More potential opponents is always good.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joel K
United States
Minnetrista
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
JoelCFC25 wrote:
Via remote desktop? You can--here's one user's reaction to trying it. Others have said it's serviceable, but I suppose it depends on the module. I haven't tried, so I can't vouch for it either way.

Update: Now I can say that I've tried VASSAL on an iPad over remote desktop. SplashTop was down to $2.99 the other day, so I bought it and connected to our iMac from the iPad last night.

It's not horrible. Obviously there's some slight lag, but most things work as you'd expect--the only difference being that you tap and hold to bring up right-click context menus. The mouse-over stack viewer didn't seem to be displaying, so that could be a hassle for big hex-and-counter games (speculating--I don't play any of those).

My verdict is that you could make a go of it--but it wouldn't be my preferred way to play a whole game. A quick turn here or there should work fine though, especially for games with low unit density.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.