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Subject: Plagiarism!!! Attention Admins!!! rss

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T. K.
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Admins, please take a look at those threads:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/737690/fatal-frame
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/749964/plagiarism

It is a game which was advertised on BGG; and it looks like a plagiarizing game. Can we do something about it?
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Matthew M
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This is not an issue for BGG to take sides in, and it would be inappropriate for us to do so. If there is a problem it is between the designers/publishers. I would expect them to work it out between themselves. Preferably privately. If any resolution comes of that that changes the name, nature, or even existence of a game then the BGG database will be updated accordingly.
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What should BGG do? Roll it into Fatal Frame's entry, like the thousand Monopoly clones? It's better to let it have its own entry, so the shame and vitriol can be confined to its rightful place. It exists, so it should be included in the database, with appropriate notation in the fora that it was made by jerks. Check and check.
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Holmes! wrote:
it should be included in the database, with appropriate notation

You can add it to Cardboard Pirates: Unauthorized Editions.

I haven't looked, but if the game is truly a copy, you could note that it's "unauthorized" in the game entry's description field. Exercise restraint with this option.
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Alain Marti
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A throw of the Geek Die Roller could solve this, with a fatal outcome for one publisher - let's say -10 Sanity.
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Russ Williams
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Interesting. FWIW there was another recent example of dubious Russian boardgame publishing in connection with Hey, That's My Fish!:
What's wrong with this cover?
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If, IF, this is true then the least (and probably most) BGG can do is remove Igor Kransnodymov's Game Designer badge.

Igor Krasnodymov
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Holmes! wrote:
What should BGG do? Roll it into Fatal Frame's entry, like the thousand Monopoly clones?



Bad example, since one of BGG's quirks (and my pet peeves) is that EVERY. SINGLE. Monopoly version is listed as a separate game.

Yes yes, I know it was Aldie's "Monopoly Fiat," that he wanted to see how many Monopoly versions there were. Now that BGG supports game versions, they really should be rolled up into one entry though.
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Fatal Frame designer's response:
StocDred wrote:
Hi guys. I'm the person who created the Fatal Frame card game. I want you guys to know that, yes, I did not know about Haunted Village until after Mr. Krasnodymov published it. Some kind folks on BGG brought the game to my attention and I reached out to him to ask about it. I requested he put my name in the credits as primary designer and he said he would, on future printings. At the time, I wasn't even sure he had anything actually printed, aside from a demo/playtest build.

I knew when I made Fatal Frame and put it out there for free on the internet that something like this could happen. Although back in 2005, I didn't even know communities like BGG existed. I wasn't even the person who submitted the game for inclusion at BGG. I just made the game because I REALLY LIKED the Fatal Frame video game, and I wanted to share it with Fatal Frame fans (which I did, on videogame fansites). I never seriously pursued an option to re-theme the rules to an original IP and get it published. Naive, I know.

I appreciate the defense - and yes, it is presumptuous and incorrect that Mr. Krasnodymov listed himself as designer - but there's not much I can do aside from asking to be credited. I think it's a lesson learned for both of us.


From FATAL FRAME?
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Joe Fourhman
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Hey everyone. I'm the guy behind Fatal Frame. I'm not going after Igor Krasnodymov (aside from asking for credit) and I'm not asking BGG to do anything. As I said in the quote above, that's sort of the ballgame when you put print-n-play stuff out there for free to the public.

Do I wish we had communicated beforehand? Absolutely. But let's allow him to make amends and learn from this.

As I hoped was obvious when I first made Fatal Frame, the artwork, characters and scenario all come from a PS2 game. So it's not like I'm standing in a flawless glass tower on this issue. I wanted to make something to share with other Fatal Frame fans, right alongside cosplay and fan-fiction, which is why I gave it to fans and never attempted to produce or sell it. But the rules and card interactions and all that, that stuff was my original idea.

I have other print-n-play games too, if anyone's interested.
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Well I don't think bgg should get involved nor do I think Haunted Village should be removed from the database.

This said, I do think Igor Krasnodymov should lose his 'boardgame designer badge' and page as it thus far appears that his only game was designed by Joe Fourhman.
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Worthiness has nothing to do with having a game designer badge. It serves a technical function.

Edit: This looks a little odd here now. Of course, if designer X really designed game Y, then I suppose designer X should be listed as the designer, and that if this leads to designer Z no longer having any linked titles, then a decision would have to be made whether to remove that designer entry, which would then lead to user Z losing the designer badge (for technical reasons).
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Remember, there is no copyright on a game, even in US law.

We have a thread on it here already:

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/493249/mythbusting-game-desi...

Not a great business decision, but the US copyright office plainly states that once a game is out there, anyone can use it as the basis of a similar game. No legal protection is granted by copyright.
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Yours is the first mention of copyright in this thread. Reactions here are about how the community should respond to this issue, and how BGG should address it. Disapprobation from folks and passivity from the database is right and correct, I think.

I also think it's a good thing that mechanics and rules can't be copyrighted; the gaming community is robust and interesting because of the cross-pollination of ideas that occurs. Further, the lack of legal protection means that it's incumbent upon us to police ourselves as we can, using the means available to us--means among which disapprobation and boycott are two of the most potent.

Dylan said, "To live outside the law you must be honest", and that's where we're at, here. The lack of legal recourse available to us is good, not only because it's healthy for our hobby creatively but because it's healthy for our community. When you remove legality from the equation, it means that we have the wonderful opportunity to decide for ourselves what we consider to be acceptable and unacceptable, without retreating into the weak tea of, "Well, the law says..."
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At the very least, I am removing this game from my wishlist.
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Tom
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Holmes! wrote:
Yours is the first mention of copyright in this thread. Reactions here are about how the community should respond to this issue, and how BGG should address it. Disapprobation from folks and passivity from the database is right and correct, I think.

I also think it's a good thing that mechanics and rules can't be copyrighted; the gaming community is robust and interesting because of the cross-pollination of ideas that occurs. Further, the lack of legal protection means that it's incumbent upon us to police ourselves as we can, using the means available to us--means among which disapprobation and boycott are two of the most potent.

Dylan said, "To live outside the law you must be honest", and that's where we're at, here. The lack of legal recourse available to us is good, not only because it's healthy for our hobby creatively but because it's healthy for our community. When you remove legality from the equation, it means that we have the wonderful opportunity to decide for ourselves what we consider to be acceptable and unacceptable, without retreating into the weak tea of, "Well, the law says..."

Aren't you quoting Black Sabbath....Mob Rules?
 
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infochuck wrote:
You are completely wrong here: the RULES of a game are 100% covered by copyright.



Not quite. The TEXT of the rules is covered by copyright.

If someone re-writes the rules by paraphrasing, using different words, sentences, tone and all of those other creative writing skills they learned in high school, they are safe.

Look through the BGG files for almost any game and you'll see re-writes of the rules to explain things in simpler or different terms to help people understand.

Quote:
it's clear the later entry copy and pasted the rules. So at the very least, this is a copyright violation.


Yes, I would agree that this is a clear violation. I also agree that getting any satisfaction from courts on the other side of the world is going to be impossible.

Sadly, just as China is starting to crack down (even a little bit) on pirates, the problem is growing in Russia.
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Right, it's the expression of the idea, not the idea itself. So specific words and artwork used to express the game, it's rules and themes, etc.. Someone could rework and rewrite everything about your game with their own words and hand drawn pics and then not even GW would have legal recourse.
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StocDred wrote:
Hey everyone. I'm the guy behind Fatal Frame. I'm not going after Igor Krasnodymov (aside from asking for credit) and I'm not asking BGG to do anything. As I said in the quote above, that's sort of the ballgame when you put print-n-play stuff out there for free to the public.

Do I wish we had communicated beforehand? Absolutely. But let's allow him to make amends and learn from this.

As I hoped was obvious when I first made Fatal Frame, the artwork, characters and scenario all come from a PS2 game. So it's not like I'm standing in a flawless glass tower on this issue. I wanted to make something to share with other Fatal Frame fans, right alongside cosplay and fan-fiction, which is why I gave it to fans and never attempted to produce or sell it. But the rules and card interactions and all that, that stuff was my original idea.

I have other print-n-play games too, if anyone's interested.


Way to take it like a champ. I hope your original version gets all the notice and attention it deserves. Thanks for writing in the thread too.
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Oliphant wrote:
Way to take it like a champ. I hope your original version gets all the notice and attention it deserves. Thanks for writing in the thread too.


The issue has certainly made me aware of the coolness of Fatal Frame, whereas before I knew nothing about it.

Thanks Joe for the fun opportunity to play table-top.
 
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From the BGG description of Haunted Village:

This is a non-credited plagiat of the print and play game "Fatal Frame"

So BGG has already acknowledged the situation. This is probably the best they can do. "Haunted Village" is published and in circulation, so BGG needs to list it. Just calling attention to the plagiarism in the internet's #1 boardgaming resource and linking to the offending game helps to raise public awareness for anyone who looks it up, so the users who have done so have so have already done a great service.
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The Grinch wrote:
From the BGG description of Haunted Village:

This is a non-credited plagiat of the print and play game "Fatal Frame"

So BGG has already acknowledged the situation. This is probably the best they can do. "Haunted Village" is published and in circulation, so BGG needs to list it. Just calling attention to the plagiarism in the internet's #1 boardgaming resource and linking to the offending game helps to raise public awareness for anyone who looks it up, so the users who have done so have so have already done a great service.


Game descriptions are freely editable wikis by anyone with a BGG user account though, so it's not really an "official" BGG approach to the situation, but, rather, whoever recently decided to edit that file. Someone could just as easily remove it tomorrow.
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JohnnyDollar wrote:
The Grinch wrote:
From the BGG description of Haunted Village:

This is a non-credited plagiat of the print and play game "Fatal Frame"

So BGG has already acknowledged the situation. This is probably the best they can do. "Haunted Village" is published and in circulation, so BGG needs to list it. Just calling attention to the plagiarism in the internet's #1 boardgaming resource and linking to the offending game helps to raise public awareness for anyone who looks it up, so the users who have done so have so have already done a great service.


Game descriptions are freely editable wikis by anyone with a BGG user account though, so it's not really an "official" BGG approach to the situation, but, rather, whoever recently decided to edit that file. Someone could just as easily remove it tomorrow.


Looks like it was added by:
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I wonder if anyone ever did the same thing for Tunebaya copying Hossa?
 
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Randy Cox wrote:
I wonder if anyone ever did the same thing for Tunebaya copying Hossa?


Well, Andrea Meyer has been added as a designer of Tunebaya.
 
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