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Subject: Wine worth 1VP *and* double-counted with 5 coins/wine worth 2VP? rss

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Here's the situation:

Under scoring, it says "Remember that wine/whiskey is not only worth 1VP, but also one coin, which means that 1 wine/whiskey plus 4 coins are worth a total of 2VP."

So, is this just in case you have some stray coins, you can bundle them and count them with the wine to squeeze out an extra point?

Or, do you count the wine, and then go back and re-score it as if it were coins?

We just finished our second game and we're currently tied. If we double-count the wine, I'll have an extra 4 points (10 wine counted as 10 coins) and Sam will have an extra 2 points (5 wine counted as 5 coins). Do we get these double-dipping points, or are we tied?
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That is not Depeche but rather
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No, I believe it's just an overly-complicated way of reminding you that you can convert the wine/whiskey to 1 coin, then change your 5 coins in for a 5 coin tile worth two points, giving you a net gain of 1 point in the process.
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DMSamuel
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So this is a translation issue?

It doesn't say that wine/whiskey is either 1VP or 1 coin, so that you can score a wine/whiskey with 4 coins to make 2VP. That would imply that it can be used for only one of those.

Instead, the wording says that wine/whiskey is not only worth 1VP, but also 1 coin. Which to does not say either/or, to me it says both.
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lorddillon wrote:
So this is a translation issue?

It doesn't say that wine/whiskey is either 1VP or 1 coin, so that you can score a wine/whiskey with 4 coins to make 2VP. That would imply that it can be used for only one of those.

Instead, the wording says that wine/whiskey is not only worth 1VP, but also 1 coin. Which to does not say either/or, to me it says both.

FWIW, it does clearly say "...which means that 1 wine/whiskey plus 4 coins are worth a total of 2VP." (emphasis mine)

If you could count both sources of points, it would be a total of 3VP. Unless, of course, there is a typo.
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DMSamuel
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Progmode wrote:
lorddillon wrote:
So this is a translation issue?

It doesn't say that wine/whiskey is either 1VP or 1 coin, so that you can score a wine/whiskey with 4 coins to make 2VP. That would imply that it can be used for only one of those.

Instead, the wording says that wine/whiskey is not only worth 1VP, but also 1 coin. Which to does not say either/or, to me it says both.

FWIW, it does clearly say "...which means that 1 wine/whiskey plus 4 coins are worth a total of 2VP." (emphasis mine)

If you could count both sources of points, it would be a total of 3VP. Unless, of course, there is a typo.


Yeah - I caught that wording too, but wondered if it was worded that way because of the actual rule or because it was just a very specific example. Let's say you had 3 coins and 2 wines - still only 2 points? That means there is no benefit, and that you only get a benefit if you have exact multiples of 4 coins and 1 wine. Just seemed odd to me. I am probably way over-analyzing it. shake

Good thing its a great game!


On the bright side, if this is the correct interpretation, then indigopotter didn't win the game - we get to share the victory devil
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Progmode wrote:
lorddillon wrote:
So this is a translation issue?

It doesn't say that wine/whiskey is either 1VP or 1 coin, so that you can score a wine/whiskey with 4 coins to make 2VP. That would imply that it can be used for only one of those.

Instead, the wording says that wine/whiskey is not only worth 1VP, but also 1 coin. Which to does not say either/or, to me it says both.

FWIW, it does clearly say "...which means that 1 wine/whiskey plus 4 coins are worth a total of 2VP." (emphasis mine)

If you could count both sources of points, it would be a total of 3VP. Unless, of course, there is a typo.


But, you HAVE to count both to get 2 VP.

5 Coin = 1 VP
1 Wine = 1 VP

The only way you can get both totals is by counting Wine as a VP AND a coin.

What am I missing?
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ferris1971 wrote:
What am I missing?


That 5 coins is normally worth 2VP.

5 coins = 2 VP
1 wine = 1 VP

So if a wine is worth not only 1 VP, but also 1 coin, then 4 coins + 1 wine = 2VP (for the 5 coins) + 1 VP for the wine alone, for a total of 3 VP.
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Greg Lott
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lorddillon wrote:
ferris1971 wrote:
What am I missing?


That 5 coins is normally worth 2VP.

5 coins = 2 VP
1 wine = 1 VP

So if a wine is worth not only 1 VP, but also 1 coin, then 4 coins + 1 wine = 2VP (for the 5 coins) + 1 VP for the wine alone, for a total of 3 VP.


Ahh, sorry... I thought 5 coin was one VP.
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lorddillon wrote:
So this is a translation issue?

It doesn't say that wine/whiskey is either 1VP or 1 coin, so that you can score a wine/whiskey with 4 coins to make 2VP. That would imply that it can be used for only one of those.

Instead, the wording says that wine/whiskey is not only worth 1VP, but also 1 coin. Which to does not say either/or, to me it says both.


You're right, "either" would have been the better term. Still, you do NOT count Wine twice. It's either 1 VP as is or 2 VP if added to 4 coins.
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Carter Maxwell
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Funny how self-interest can find ambiguity in rules where there really isn't any.
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Fishpeddler wrote:
Funny how self-interest can find ambiguity in rules where there really isn't any.


LOL - except in this case I was the one saying that the phrase Not only... But also was meaning you count it twice, and it is better for me in this instance to not count them twice. If we don't count twice, then we tie (both win), if we do count twice, then I lose.

So... not self interest, I just really wanted to know which was the correct way to score the game.
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lorddillon wrote:
Fishpeddler wrote:
Funny how self-interest can find ambiguity in rules where there really isn't any.


LOL - except in this case I was the one saying that the phrase Not only... But also was meaning you count it twice, and it is better for me in this instance to not count them twice. If we don't count twice, then we tie (both win), if we do count twice, then I lose.

So... not self interest, I just really wanted to know which was the correct way to score the game.


It was self-interest for your partner.
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I told Sam, either way, he won - he has a gf who will play Ora and Labora with him
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One thing to note on this topic is that whisky is actually worth 2 coins, right?

I believe this is a typo since it discusses and wine/whisky as if they're equal in points on this topic...
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mfaulk80 wrote:
One thing to note on this topic is that whisky is actually worth 2 coins, right?

I believe this is a typo since it discusses and wine/whisky as if they're equal in points on this topic...


You're right, but the typo is the rulebook's - I just went and checked, and that's what it says.
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indigopotter wrote:
mfaulk80 wrote:
One thing to note on this topic is that whisky is actually worth 2 coins, right?

I believe this is a typo since it discusses and wine/whisky as if they're equal in points on this topic...


You're right, but the typo is the rulebook's - I just went and checked, and that's what it says.

Yes, that's what I had meant.
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Fishpeddler wrote:
Funny how self-interest can find ambiguity in rules where there really isn't any.


No ambiguity? I found this thread while doing a search before making my own on this very topic (yay, search). Before looking here, it was completely clear to me that you double-count the wine and that the 2 was really a typo that meant 3. (That is to say, the English unambiguously says the *wrong* thing to me.) If the intention is otherwise, I'd say the rules are suffering from a rather severe translation problem and not clear at all.

I shall treat the rules as if they said "either...or" instead of "not only...but also" and hope nobody calls me on it.
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Hmmm, I wish there was a more solid consensus on this issue, since I'm wondering about it as well.

However, since during the play of the game, the coins on wine and whiskey are essentially just reminders that you can convert them into that many coins, I suspect you either get to count them as points in the end game OR convert them to coins, but not both.
 
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fnord3125 wrote:
Hmmm, I wish there was a more solid consensus on this issue, since I'm wondering about it as well.


If you take a glance at the credits page on the back of the Ora manual, you'll see that

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is listed as co-editor. His interpretation therefore probably counts for more than consensus
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karat wrote:
Fishpeddler wrote:
Funny how self-interest can find ambiguity in rules where there really isn't any.


No ambiguity? I found this thread while doing a search before making my own on this very topic (yay, search). Before looking here, it was completely clear to me that you double-count the wine and that the 2 was really a typo that meant 3. (That is to say, the English unambiguously says the *wrong* thing to me.) If the intention is otherwise, I'd say the rules are suffering from a rather severe translation problem and not clear at all.

I shall treat the rules as if they said "either...or" instead of "not only...but also" and hope nobody calls me on it.

Same here. Just read that and was scratching my head, so I came here to find this very thread. Answer solved. Thanks Gregory!
 
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