Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
3 Posts

Rise and Decline of the Third Reich» Forums » Rules

Subject: One More Spanish Variant Question rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Jersey Guys
United States
New Jersey
flag msg tools
mb
If Spain becomes an Italian Minor Ally under Axis variant 4, would the Spanish units be eligible for lending to the Germans under rule 36.2? The Spanish units do become Italian force pool, so that may indicate yes. On the other hand there's nothing explicit that says they can be.

any thoughts on this?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
sean dolbee
United States
Grass Valley
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Wow..good question just when I thought this game had nothing left to hide.....Roll a die?.. All kidding aside I would say yes Italy could lend the unit's,Not that this helps but in A3R I think i read that it is allowed..you know reading back my post I think I may have confused the question even more...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Vicomte13 13
msg tools
My thought is no. Spanish units are not Italian units, they're Spanish. They have their own color, and their own movement limitations (only in the Med, etc.)

So, no, Italy can lend Italian units. Italy cannot lend Spanish units.


As an historical aside, one rule change I would make to the game is a rule that allows Spain to enter on the side of the Axis if the historical conditions Franco gave are met.

Franco met with Hitler after the fall of France, and gave his conditions for Spain entering the war.

First, there needed to be a large economic commitment. Franco was looking for money - a LOT of money. It might be that the DoW cost of 35 BRPs to get in Spain would represent that cost, but probably the rule should be that Germany needs to send Spain a BRP grant of 20 BRPs, minimum AND Germany or Italy have to spend the 35 BRPs to declare war.

Second, Gibraltar belongs to Spain, as does all of French Morrocco. The rule should be that if Spain is brought in as a Minor Ally and Gibraltar is conquered, that Gibraltar immediately becomes not just a Spanish possession, but an integral Spanish hex and French Morrocco is passed to Spain and beoomes Spanish. (In game terms, this would cause the deactivation of Vichy France - Vichy could never be activated if Germany activates Spain by giving Morrocco to Spain.) The Germans or Italians may USE Gibraltar, but the hex belongs to Spain and becomes an integral part of Spain. This would mean that if Spain fell Gibraltar would pass along with the rest of Spain to the conquering power. Historically, on July 18, 1940, just after the fall of France, Franco claimed Gibraltar as Spanish territory from the British (though he carefully made no move to take it). His motivation was almost certainly to make it clear to the Germans that he would in fact fight THEM over Gibraltar if Britain made peace with Hitler and the Germans attempted to occupy the Rock. Franco was really much more interested in Spain than he was in Hitler's and Mussolini's grand designs. (But then, that's why Franco remained the ruler of Spain until he died in bed, still ruler, and passed the government over to the King of Spain, rather than end up hanged on a meathook in public or blowing his own brains out in a bunker. Franco was not a megalomaniac, and he was not stupid.)

Third. The Germans must have landed in Britain in a full-scale invasion. This was a key condition of Franco. He was (rightly) afraid of British power. He wanted to be sure that, if Spain came into the war, the Germans were going to fully knock out Britain (and he didn't really believe they could or would - for unlike Hitler and Mussolini, Franco was a professional military man, a real General who had won his country's civil war, so he actually understood military matters much better than any of the politicians running any of the countries in Europe at the time.) In game terms, this would mean that a Bridgehead would have to established on a British beach by a German invasion. Just dropping in a paratroop would not be enough to persuade Franco to join.

If those three conditions, which are Franco's historical terms given to Hitler, are met, then Spain should enter the war as a German AND Italian Minor Ally. Franco had a good relationship with Mussolini, but he (rightly) saw the Italian Fascists as weak and feckless, so he would have allied with both Germany and Italy. The reason to have the dual Alliance would be that Spain should not wink out of existence just because Rome or Berlin falls. In truth, Spain should probably stay in existence and fight on - or be able to be bought off to neutrality if both countries fell, but there's no need to go that far for Third Reich rules purposes.

Hitler's historical response to his meeting with Franco?
"I would rather have four of my own teeth pulled out than go through another meeting with that man again!"
Hitler said that to Mussolini.
Spain was not going to be an ally of Hitler, because Hitler would not meet Franco's conditions.

"I did not defeat Stalin just to hand my country over to Hitler."
- Generalissimo Francisco Franco, in 1940
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.