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Subject: Encourage us to fight rss

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Roni Jaakkola
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Hey there, nice to meet you! @Nashtanir in Twitter
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We have played rather many games already (3- and 4-player games). However, there have been almost none fights between players (except couple of interceptor vs interceptor fights). Seems that all players are just really afraid of getting into the fight with another human player if that may result a huge loss and automatic defeat in the game.

Tell us what would make us more confident to fight against each other. We know that we'll receive a nice amount of reputation tiles but we feel we'll get them anyways from ancient fights.

So, why should we fight, or is the game just mainly building your own universe without worrying about other players?
 
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Forrest & Ryan Driskel
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There's already about a half dozen topics on this.

I don't get the turtle discussion
Brainstorm : What House rule could be done to give and extra reward to players to not turtle?
The turtle or the...

The answer is... its the players, not the game.

Perhaps the best reason to fight is that its a swing when you take their hex, not just adding to your score but decreasing theirs.
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Jim Richardson

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Vanish wrote:
The answer is... its the players, not the game.


Yep.

It's easy to take it personally when someone attacks you. They're threatening your continued enjoyment of the game if they take away your ability to win early on.

I would suggest requiring someone to play Orion Hegemony each game. Then maybe your group would get more used to dealing with early combat.
 
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Joseph Cochran
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Nashtanir wrote:
Tell us what would make us more confident to fight against each other. We know that we'll receive a nice amount of reputation tiles but we feel we'll get them anyways from ancient fights.

So, why should we fight, or is the game just mainly building your own universe without worrying about other players?


If you are not the Planta or the Descendants of Draco, everyone turtling concedes the advantage in the game to those two races. It's not impossible for another race to win against them in an all-turtle situation, but do you really want to start at a disadvantage?
 
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Mathue Faulkner
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Nashtanir wrote:

Tell us what would make us more confident to fight against each other. We know that we'll receive a nice amount of reputation tiles but we feel we'll get them anyways from ancient fights.

When fighting the ancients, you're only keeping 1 of 2....but when you're attacking others, you're more likely to be destroying more ships, and your odds will increase in grabbing one of the 3 or 4 VP tiles.

Are you playing with the alien races? Because some of those races should be fighting out of the gate. They're stronger and built for early fighting..
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Jon Quinn
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mfaulk80 wrote:
Nashtanir wrote:

Tell us what would make us more confident to fight against each other. We know that we'll receive a nice amount of reputation tiles but we feel we'll get them anyways from ancient fights.

When fighting the ancients, you're only keeping 1 of 2....but when you're attacking others, you're more likely to be destroying more ships, and your odds will increase in grabbing one of the 3 or 4 VP tiles.

Are you playing with the alien races? Because some of those races should be fighting out of the gate. They're stronger and built for early fighting..


I think fighting is one of the human's strongpoints as well from the ability to move more ships to the site of the battle during each action phase.
 
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Ed Bradley
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Don't be soft! Have a fight!
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Mathue Faulkner
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jwquinn wrote:

I think fighting is one of the human's strongpoints as well from the ability to move more ships to the site of the battle during each action phase.

I agree that they have some strengths for fighting, but the Eridani and Orion Hegemony are stronger out of the gate..

Middle and late round fighting, the humans ability to move 3 ships can be huge..
 
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Harald Torvatn
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Nashtanir wrote:
We have played rather many games already (3- and 4-player games). However, there have been almost none fights between players (except couple of interceptor vs interceptor fights). Seems that all players are just really afraid of getting into the fight with another human player if that may result a huge loss and automatic defeat in the game.

Tell us what would make us more confident to fight against each other. We know that we'll receive a nice amount of reputation tiles but we feel we'll get them anyways from ancient fights.

So, why should we fight, or is the game just mainly building your own universe without worrying about other players?


When the game aproaches the end, count all countable (un-secret) victory points. That should give you a good idea about who is winning if no one fight.

Then those who will not win if status quo is maintained think about how to win. I would be suprised if fighting did not turn out to be among the most promising thing they could do.
 
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Will Sanchez
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Since (imho) the biggest fear of losing a battle is crippling your own military, I'd say after a battle, give every "destroyed" ship a 50/50 chance of surviving for a player defending a system with their influence disk in it. The ships retreat to an adjacent hex and can make for a kind of "guerilla warfare" strategy without having to resort to plasma missiles. Maybe make them "damaged" and flip them upside down, and they can be repaired and returned to play for a fraction of what they normally cost to produce (1 for interceptors, 3 for cruisers, 5 for dreadnoughts). This way a player isn't automatically out of the game if their fleet loses a battle.
 
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Petri Savola
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Attack your neighbors when they are weak. It's easier to defend than to attack, so if you have a military advantage (big science or material lead), don't hestitate to attack. If you wait for a couple of turns, your opponent has more options to build up the defence and you might be unable to gain much from combat.

If I lose a game, I often look back and try to analyze why I lost. Most often I've recognized this pattern: I was not aggressive enough when I had the chance. Last turn combats can work, but if your opponent spends the first few turns buying tech to boost his economy (advanced mining/economy/labs or orbitals), you should try to attack him before he gains advantage with his better production.

I think it's important to realize that losing a few systems is not the end of the world. You'll still gain the production for one turn and actually gain money, because the influence disk is returned to your track before the upkeep.
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Purple Paladin

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They created this game so players may take many paths to victory. They also made it so you can change and alter those winning plans as you play.

Since players themsevles choose how they wish to play and win, I don't know what people expect the developers to do; stand behind some players who don't like to win via combat, with a shotgun, and yell "attack or I'll shoot!".

If they made it so attaking was really "worth more", people would be complaining how combat is the only way to win, and how the Orions and Eridani are overpowered.

Oh, and of course, they'd still complain about luck causing them to lose battles. . .
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Lance McMillan
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Vanish pegged it -- the problem's with the players, not the system.

However, if you need extra incentive to get your players to be more aggressive, just allow a player to discard a reputation tile from another player if you defeat them in combat (not keep it, just randomly remove one and put it back into the bag -- AFTER you draw any rep you're entitled to for winning).
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Evil Bob
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Purple Paladin is 100% correct. The designers created the game with multiple paths to victory. Why, then, place more importance on one of those paths?

Here's a suggestion if your players are too timid to attack;

Play the next game of Eclipse without any VPs. Make it a game of elimination.

This way, everyone will become more accustomed to the combat system and feel more comfortable attacking each other in future gaming sessions.
 
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Julian
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My bigger mistake in the games i have played so far (5), was agreeing to or lookig for diplomatic agreement when i should have wagged war instead. All my games have seen plenty player combat, anyway, althought diferent each time (because of tech draft, exploring, etc. As the players get used to the game, is seems easier and faster to become agresive.
 
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Antti Autio
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Gina, Escher gang leader (Necromunda). Don't mess with her or she'll kick your ass.. actually, she's gonna do it anyway!
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zorro_jv wrote:
My bigger mistake in the games i have played so far (5), was agreeing to or lookig for diplomatic agreement when i should have wagged war instead. All my games have seen plenty player combat, anyway, althought diferent each time (because of tech draft, exploring, etc. As the players get used to the game, is seems easier and faster to become agresive.

Being aggressive and waging war doesn't mean you should shy away from early diplomatic agreements. They might help you a lot. Just don't hesitate to break them if you see an opportunity to benefit from it!
 
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Markus
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Nashtanir wrote:
So, why should we fight, or is the game just mainly building your own universe without worrying about other players?


Try being the aggressor next time. If everyone turtles and is afraid to attack, you will probably win by quickly equipping yourself and launching a full-scale offensive against your neighbour. They'll learn as the galaxy burns... arrrh
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