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Subject: Lots of tokens rss

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Eric Brosius
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My favorite 18xx game for six players is two games of 1846 with three players each.
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I've played just two games of 1817 so far, but both have ended with a lot of tokens on the board. I've also seen comments on line by others who have made the same observation. In theory, there could be as many as 160 tokens on the map (though this limit is not likely to be achieved in practice.) It makes it hard to start new companies later in the game.

Is this typical, or are we missing some strategic point that prevents "token chokin'"?
 
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Scott Petersen
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Eric Brosius wrote:
I've played just two games of 1817 so far, but both have ended with a lot of tokens on the board. I've also seen comments on line by others who have made the same observation. In theory, there could be as many as 160 tokens on the map (though this limit is not likely to be achieved in practice.) It makes it hard to start new companies later in the game.

Is this typical, or are we missing some strategic point that prevents "token chokin'"?

Yes, very typical.
 
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Ian Scrivins
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I won't be playing 1817 until tomorrow, but I'm guessing that blocked stations are very much a part of the game. Once a company has run out of money and trains, its only saleable asset is some well placed station markers.
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Duarte Conceicao
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Do you guys already own the DTP version? Or were you talking about the proto? If it was the last case does anyone know if the DTP production version will have some differences aside from the artwork?

 
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Eric Brosius
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I made a DTP copy. As far as I know, there are a few changes in the rule book, and the DTG version will come with only enough components to short 5 shares in a company unless you pay extra for the extra components. The DTP version came standard with components to short 10 shares of a 10-share company. However, John Tamplin of DTG says all the orders so far include the extra components.
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Ian Scrivins
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I've also played a prototype copy, made by a friend at the 18xx group I play at.
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Bill Byrd
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Eric Brosius wrote:
I've played just two games of 1817 so far, but both have ended with a lot of tokens on the board. I've also seen comments on line by others who have made the same observation. In theory, there could be as many as 160 tokens on the map (though this limit is not likely to be achieved in practice.) It makes it hard to start new companies later in the game.

Is this typical, or are we missing some strategic point that prevents "token chokin'"?


I think it's typical. I did a quick count on the map, and there are 42 token spaces, after all tiles have been upgraded fully, and very few will be empty at the end. Sometimes a city or two will not get developed, for even fewer spaces, but it has been rare in my games.

I've played somewhere between 15 and 20 full games and they all have been characterized by intense token pressure. Planning for end-game routes in 1817 is one of the most challenging things I've ever experienced in a game. By the time permanent trains are available, it is probably impossible to start a company that can run one for all its stops....I've seen 8s runs as 3s more times than I care to count.
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Duarte Conceicao
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Eric Brosius wrote:
I made a DTP copy. As far as I know, there are a few changes in the rule book, and the DTG version will come with only enough components to short 5 shares in a company unless you pay extra for the extra components. The DTP version came standard with components to short 10 shares of a 10-share company. However, John Tamplin of DTG says all the orders so far include the extra components.


I believe the last rules version (from December) dropped the possibility to short 10 shares in a 10 share company. I find it surprising that all the orders are being placed with the extra components. Did you guys played by the latest rules? Or are you still playing with the possibility to short 10 shares?

iansc wrote:
I've also played a prototype copy, made by a friend at the 18xx group I play at.


Did you guys played by the latest rules? Or are you still playing with the possibility to short 10 share?

Thanks!
Duarte
 
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boatner wrote:

I've played somewhere between 15 and 20 full games and they all have been characterized by intense token pressure. Planning for end-game routes in 1817 is one of the most challenging things I've ever experienced in a game. By the time permanent trains are available, it is probably impossible to start a company that can run one for all its stops....I've seen 8s runs as 3s more times than I care to count.


Bill do the final sets of OR's tend to drag due to this heavy and probably changing routes calculation? Don't know if it is comparable to 1856 which I like but I find out the D runs in the end game a drag to calculate and keep track.

Thanks
Duarte
 
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Bill Byrd
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duartec wrote:


Did you guys played by the latest rules? Or are you still playing with the possibility to short 10 share?

Thanks!
Duarte


My group always plays with what is now a variant rule; we allow 10 shorts on 10-share companies.

I cannot currently imagine a circumstance in which I would play the other way. Of course, the future is a big place....
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Bill Byrd
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duartec wrote:
boatner wrote:

I've played somewhere between 15 and 20 full games and they all have been characterized by intense token pressure. Planning for end-game routes in 1817 is one of the most challenging things I've ever experienced in a game. By the time permanent trains are available, it is probably impossible to start a company that can run one for all its stops....I've seen 8s runs as 3s more times than I care to count.


Bill do the final sets of OR's tend to drag due to this heavy and probably changing routes calculation? Don't know if it is comparable to 1856 which I like but I find out the D runs in the end game a drag to calculate and keep track.

Thanks
Duarte


In my recent games, the final ORs have actually gone fairly quickly.

The map gets fully developed for many companies very soon after the first 7 train. Most companies have had their final routes established since the brown tiles hit. Only a few are still scrabbling for longer routes. Often a merger is required to facilitate this, and that reduces the number of operating companies.

Further, many trains will not run their full distance -- many 7s and 8s are stuck running as smaller trains until they can be fed off to a company with a better route, either by sale or merger/acquisition.
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Eric Brosius
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My favorite 18xx game for six players is two games of 1846 with three players each.
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duartec wrote:
Eric Brosius wrote:
I made a DTP copy. As far as I know, there are a few changes in the rule book, and the DTG version will come with only enough components to short 5 shares in a company unless you pay extra for the extra components. The DTP version came standard with components to short 10 shares of a 10-share company. However, John Tamplin of DTG says all the orders so far include the extra components.


I believe the last rules version (from December) dropped the possibility to short 10 shares in a 10 share company. I find it surprising that all the orders are being placed with the extra components. Did you guys played by the latest rules? Or are you still playing with the possibility to short 10 shares?


The games we played were before the maximum of 5 short shares was introduced to the rules.
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Ian Scrivins
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duartec wrote:
iansc wrote:
I've also played a prototype copy, made by a friend at the 18xx group I play at.


Did you guys played by the latest rules? Or are you still playing with the possibility to short 10 share?

Thanks!
Duarte


We played with 5 short shares per company as in the latest rules (although enough certs had been printed to allow 10). I thought that was a good number as shorting can be a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Shorting involves putting real shares into the marketplace and if they stay there, the target share price drops at the end of the stock round. The only way for a company to defend itself is to buy back those shares, which probably involves loans that also drop the share price.
The game really revolves around companies keeping plenty of liquidity, i.e. taking out loans prior to a stock round. I saw both successful and unsuccessful shorting in the game I played, timing being very, very crucial.
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Bill Byrd
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iansc wrote:
...shorting can be a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy.


This is true only if a company is overvalued. As players learn how to manage companies 1817 style, it becomes more and more difficult to make money from shorting, and so shorting becomes mare and more rare.

I believe you really need the 10 shorts to keep 10-share companies in check.
 
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