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Subject: Detection by Escort rss

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Alessandro Trovato
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1) I suppose Escort Detection is performed only for undetected U-Boats, no sense to do it for U-Boat still with Detected marker from the previous round of the Combat Phase. Correct?
(Or is it performed and the U-Boat Detected marker is removed if all Escorts fail?)

2) The Ready Torpedo number has to be considered as the max number of Torpedos to set Ready during the Reload, not just for the initial set-up. Correct?

Alex

 
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Dean Brown
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Yes, escort detection is only done if your U-boat is currently Undetcted. Once you are detected by one Escort, you are then detected by all other Escort ships.

Correct. Stored torpedoes is the maximum number of torpedoes your U-Boat can carry. Ready torpedoes is the maximum number that are loaded in torpedo tubes and can be fired while on the tactical display.
 
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Alessandro Trovato
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Thanks a lot Dean

Alex
 
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Paul S
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GrumpyOldGamer wrote:
Stored torpedoes is the maximum number of torpedoes your U-Boat can carry. Ready torpedoes is the maximum number that are loaded in torpedo tubes and can be fired while on the tactical display.


Just to clarify - I have played that you can have ready + stored torps. You seem to be suggesting that in fact the stored number includes the ready ones? But that could just be how I'm reading the above.
 
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Alessandro Trovato
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I think he simply wanted to confirm that Stored is the maximum once spent the initial Ready load. The answer to my question is actually the second part.

Was it so difficult to reload new Torpedos during an attack? I think movies show otherwise

Alex
 
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Dean Brown
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Sorry. I should have been more clear. Total # of torpedoes is Ready + Stored.
 
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Marc Wuthe
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alextrov wrote:
Was it so difficult to reload new Torpedos during an attack? I think movies show otherwise

Alex


Good question! And I deal with it since I'm playing UBL. As a matter of fact, historically it was done! BUT... it depended upon a few factors.

One main factor I guess was, if the u-boat was detected. A detected U-Boat (by escorts, not merchants...) had most of the time other problems than to reload his tubes... and in this cases, the U-boat would have tried to evoid/escape detection and come back later to give heavy damaged ships the rest. Provided that the u-boat survived any attacks... And without doubt, the "final shot rule" cover this matter quiet good IMO.

But what I dislike is the situation, where you damaged one or more ships under really heavy risks and bad conditions, left undetected and in the end you can't give the final shot because you havn't any contacts remaining. Doesn't feel right.

Following rule suggestion for Tactical Reload:

If you manage to be left undeteced, it should be possible to reload at least one or maybe two tubes while on the tactical display at the end of the combat round (all tubes I must say would be really too much for the tactical situation / timeframe represented on the TC).
It should be allowed for at least ace/veteran and maybe trained crews, Not green ones! And it should put stress on your boat. What about 1 stress point per tube reloaded? Or 1 stress point for ace/veteran boats, two points for trained. Or maybe an ace/veteran could reload two, a trained just one tube? Lots of possibilities.

Further suggestions: it should take time! Maybe two turns in succession without detection? I guess this will be fair and balanced!

I will give it a try. Because it really reflects reality in a more accurate way.

You can add of course a lot more chrome: e.g. if your boat has a cautious skipper, and you are detected after the turn you reloaded, the reload gets canceled...
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Marc Wuthe
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So, just had another play with the same problem! Five ready torpedoes fired at two ships in addition to gun attack. Outcome: one heavy, one light + heavy damage. Before I had any chace to finish the thing with my gun, the escorts detected and hunted me nearly to death, while the damaged ships lag moved out of the map. And of course I had no contacts remaining... frustrating... I find it very hard with just one contact to achieve good results. You have to have really lucky dice. I'm wondering if all the guys who said this game is far too easy played it correct without reloading while in the tactical segment... For my part, I find it quiet fair (with the optional rules) and don't think it's far too easy...shake
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Dean Brown
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Marc,
I think you hit the nail on the head when you said "with the optional rules". It is definitely harder, just with the new torpedo spread rules. I only got a "good" rating my last game with them. I still think the new torpedo spread rules are a little too weak, but it makes it more challenging.

With the core set of rules, I think it is way too easy. I was sinking ships pretty easily. Most of the comments about how easy the game is were probably before the optional rules came out, not due to any rules violations.
 
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Dean Brown
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alextrov wrote:
Was it so difficult to reload new Torpedos during an attack? I think movies show otherwise


The Type IX U-boats stored eight torpedoes topside. They could only be brought down into the U-boat in calm weather. The one generic reload rule may be incorporating some aspect of this situation.
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Marc Wuthe
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GrumpyOldGamer wrote:
The Type IX U-boats stored eight torpedoes topside. They could only be brought down into the U-boat in calm weather.


Yes, so the type VII. There were additional store places at the topside. Later in the war these storage places weren't used anymore, because the crew hadn't any chance to get these torpedoes down.

But nevertheless, during an attack on a convoy, historically, torpedoe tubes were definitely reloaded!
 
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David Schueler
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Pac76 wrote:
GrumpyOldGamer wrote:
The Type IX U-boats stored eight torpedoes topside. They could only be brought down into the U-boat in calm weather.


Yes, so the type VII. There were additional store places at the topside. Later in the war these storage places weren't used anymore, because the crew hadn't any chance to get these torpedoes down.

But nevertheless, during an attack on a convoy, historically, torpedoe tubes were definitely reloaded!


I wanted to make a quick note about reloads.

As both of you noted, there were issues with reloading externally stored torpedoes. Additionally, for the first couple years of the war there wasn't much emphasis put on reloading torpedo tubes while in contact with the enemy (in some cases it could take the crew up to 30 minutes to reload a tube). While the emphasis on reloading during combat and reload times changed during the war, I decided to keep it simple and just leave reloading until after a battle.

Dave
 
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Marc Wuthe
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Hi David!

Thanks for your post. I see your point! It's just that with the optional torpedoe spread rule it got really hard to achieve good results with the laod you have ready at hands... shake But I didn't play with reloading yet. And probably I won't because it doesn't feel right in the tactical time frame. What do you think? With all the optional rules out and in effect now, isn't it necessary to adjust the VP evaluation? It's quiet hard to achieve a real victory isn't it?
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Dean Brown
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I only use a subset of the optional rules (Variable Escort Placement, Aggressive Escort Movement, and Tougher Torpedo Spreads), and I have earned a Good rating several times. It is definitely harder.

I just started a Linked Campaign. I want to play across all four campaigns. One minor annoyance is that U-43 is the only U-Boat that can play in all four. The third campaign only allows U-Boat types VIIC's and IX. I was hoping to take Prien the distance (he already sunk over 50K of ships on his first patrol). I might decide to "overlook" that limitation. Maybe just keep him in the North Atlantic and Central Atlantic areas.
 
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Dean Brown
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Pac76 wrote:
With all the optional rules out and in effect now, isn't it necessary to adjust the VP evaluation? It's quiet hard to achieve a real victory isn't it?

Ok... Now i'm annoyed. I am having trouble sinking anything this campaign. The torpedo spread rules are just too weak.
 
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David Schueler
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Pac76 wrote:
Hi David!

Thanks for your post. I see your point! It's just that with the optional torpedoe spread rule it got really hard to achieve good results with the laod you have ready at hands... shake But I didn't play with reloading yet. And probably I won't because it doesn't feel right in the tactical time frame. What do you think? With all the optional rules out and in effect now, isn't it necessary to adjust the VP evaluation? It's quiet hard to achieve a real victory isn't it?


Marc,

The Victory Point evaluation when using the optional Torpedo Spread rule is very tough. I will paraphrase the advice of a real U-Boat commander "It is better to sink one ship rather than damaging many." (I think this is somewhere in the U-Boat Commander's Handbook, but I've seen it elsewhere too.) You will probably do better by concentrating attacks on one or two ships than attacking a bunch.

That said, the optional rule does reduce the ships sunk (and VPs earned), you could add another 20% to your final VP total earned (just multiply by final total by 1.2) to get final total for evaluation. This would match up a little better with the results.

For reloading in the Tactical Turn, there will be a rule for it in the follow-up Pacific version of the game. The rule I'm testing out right now makes reloading an action during the submarine's Attack segment (it is busy reloading instead of attacking) with the number of tubes reloaded dependent on experience. This might change, but that is the direction I'm heading with the rule right now. If you want to try that out, let a Green crew reload 1 torpedo, Trained and Veteran 2 torpedoes, and Ace 3 torpedoes.

Dave

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Marc Wuthe
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daveshoe wrote:
there will be a rule for it in the follow-up Pacific version of the game.


COOL! There will be a pacific version? Great! Do you now when it will be out?

BTW thanks for your detailed answer! The VP-multiplier 1.2 sounds fair! Otherwise it is really hard. Like Dean I had really trouble to sink anything in the last campaign...

 
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Dean Brown
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One other thought i had for the new rule would be to add a modifer based on the U-boat skill level. For example, Veteran might get +1 and Ace might get +2.

I am really frustrated with this, and i'm not sure what else to do. I don't even feel like playing it right now.
 
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David Schueler
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GrumpyOldGamer wrote:
One other thought i had for the new rule would be to add a modifer based on the U-boat skill level. For example, Veteran might get +1 and Ace might get +2.

I am really frustrated with this, and i'm not sure what else to do. I don't even feel like playing it right now.


Dean,

If you are looking for modifiers to try with the optional Torpedo Spread rule, try this:

-During the Attack segment, instead of attacking a U-Boat can "Track" an enemy ship. Place a marker on a ship to show it is tracked (You can probably use the Tactics counters for this).

-The number of ships a U-Boat can track is limited by Skill Level. A Green crew can Track 1 ship, Trained and Veteran crews can Track 2 ships, and Ace crews can Track 3 ships. (Note: Type II U-Boats can only track a maximum of 2 ships.)

-There is a +2 modifier to for torpedo attacks on Tracked ships.

-After a U-Boat attacks with torpedoes or guns, all Track markers are removed.

This was something we were playing around with before going to the spread modifiers in the current rules. It gives you a good attack modifier, but you might have to expose yourself to Escorts while tracking.

Dave
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Bob Slaughter
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daveshoe wrote:
If you are looking for modifiers to try with the optional Torpedo Spread rule, try this:


Very nice, I think I will try them soon.
 
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Charles CORDIER
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The original rule works for me.
There are a lot of factors that are hidden in the contact rule. Reason to get no contact can range from no merchant at sea to crew exhaustion or bad weather. Engaging a convoy with only one contact means engaging under some sort of pressure (weather, fatigue, additionnal escort about to reach the convoy, discharged batteries, worn out machinery ...) which means you will not be able/willing to reload and continue combat. Engaging with spare contacts means better conditions which will de facto allow to reload and reengage. Also Final Shot can gives you this last needed torpedo.

As I understand it, U-Boat war was a frustrating one, weeks of endless patrol, missed oportunities, unachieved victories and so on ...
 
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