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Subject: Question about mythos encounter card rss

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Mike Private
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A mythos encounter card had a player in the other world move back to the gate and close it due to a successsful check. Can he now try to seal it?
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brian
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briareos200 wrote:
A mythos encounter card had a player in the other world move back to the gate and close it due to a successsful check. Can he now try to seal it?

Only if the card specifically said he can. Some do, some don't.
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J
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And what if the card doesn't say either way for example this cutie.

Quote:
You've completed your task, but now you must escape before the portal closes! Pass a Speed (-2) check to return to Arkham. If you fail, you are lost in time and space. In either event, you automatically close the gate you entered through.


This has come up more than once and I'm never sure the right ruling since it doesn't specify sealing either way. Usually I let the group decide and just inform them of how other similar cards are worded. The Group has even allowed someone who failed the roll to seal and since it was a group consensus I didn't bother trying to stop them but I did want to know what was right.
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Jon Dennis
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ColtsFan76 wrote:

Only if the card specifically said he can. Some do, some don't.

"If an investigator successfully closes a gate, he may immediately spend five Clue tokens to permanently seal it." (rulebook p.16)
Sounds like a big YES to me.
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brian
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allstar64 wrote:
And what if the card doesn't say either way for example this cutie.

Quote:
You've completed your task, but now you must escape before the portal closes! Pass a Speed (-2) check to return to Arkham. If you fail, you are lost in time and space. In either event, you automatically close the gate you entered through.


This has come up more than once and I'm never sure the right ruling since it doesn't specify sealing either way. Usually I let the group decide and just inform them of how other similar cards are worded. The Group has even allowed someone who failed the roll to seal and since it was a group consensus I didn't bother trying to stop them but I did want to know what was right.

That would fall under the "some don't" category.

If it says you can, you can. If it doesn't say anything about sealing, then you can't seal.
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Daniel Beauley
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I also lean toward "Yes."
@macgowan: The "Sealing Gates" entry (p.18 in my rulebook) has its own heading, and is in a single paragraph, as if it applies to any successful closing. If the entry were a continuation of the "Closing Gates" section on the previous page, then I would have to include it in the context of a normal attempt to close (with trip to other world, successful re-emergence and explored marker, and closing dieroll.)
That said, I will ask, in response to ColtsFan76, does our investigator get to keep the gate marker as a trophy (assume it's not the 'endless' gate)? It doesn't say that on the card, either. In "Closing Gates," (p.17) it says "If the investigator succeeds at this check, he closes the gate and takes the gate marker as a gate trophy." Also, the paragraph opens with the conditional "If, during the Arkham Encounters Phase, an investigator is in a location that contains an open gate and that investigator has acquired the explored marker, he may now attempt to close the gate." So you could argue that the investigator never made a legal roll to close, and would be ineligible to keep the trophy.
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David Ainsworth
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I'm also a "yes" man, for the reasons already pointed out.
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Jack M
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
allstar64 wrote:
And what if the card doesn't say either way for example this cutie.

Quote:
You've completed your task, but now you must escape before the portal closes! Pass a Speed (-2) check to return to Arkham. If you fail, you are lost in time and space. In either event, you automatically close the gate you entered through.


This has come up more than once and I'm never sure the right ruling since it doesn't specify sealing either way. Usually I let the group decide and just inform them of how other similar cards are worded. The Group has even allowed someone who failed the roll to seal and since it was a group consensus I didn't bother trying to stop them but I did want to know what was right.

That would fall under the "some don't" category.

If it says you can, you can. If it doesn't say anything about sealing, then you can't seal.


I disagree with this. The rulebook says:

"If an investigator successfully closes a gate, he may immediately spend five Clue tokens to permanently seal it. The player takes a doom token from the pile of unused doom tokens, turns it over to its elder sign side, and places the token on the gate location. The player still claims the gate marker as a trophy."

The encounter card states "You've completed your task," which sounds to me like you've closed the gate. You initiated the self-destruct mechanism on the portal or whatever from the other world. In any case, thematically, "you've completed your task" is your investigator closing the gate. In fact, the encounter specifically says "you close the gate." There's no reason he couldn't have used his or her clues about the mythos to make sure it can't reopen. And the speed check shouldn't matter either, because that just determines which side of the portal the investigator finds him or herself on after closing.

Point is, the gate isn't closing itself, it's your investigator that did it, and the rulebook says if your investigator closes a gate, 5 clues can be spent to seal. The rule does NOT say that after you pass a check to close a gate, you can seal. Sealing is under its own separate heading, saying whenever you close a gate. The encounter card says "you close a gate." It's pretty clear to me.

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brian
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You can disagree with me all you want but that isn't how it is ruled. In order to seal you must have closed it during a normal closing attempt, then you can seal it. If you close it as part of an encounter, you can't seal it unless specification stated.

"Completing your task" also has nothing to do with it either. That is all flavor text which has zero bearing on how any encounter resolves.
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Russ Taylor
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It's shocking how often bad rulings are made even by companies that write games. Be your own person, and follow what you think makes sense, rather than blindly hewing to what someone else tells you
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Jeff
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Seems like we've got the classic Ron Burgundy "agree to disagree" situation. As strongly as Brian feels the rules state one thing, I equally strongly disagree. I don't think anyone short of the game designer or author of the rules can say "this is the way it is whether you agree or not".

For the points mentioned above, I agree that if a card indicates that you have closed a gate than I don't see any reason why you should not be able to seal it, assuming you have met the normal conditions to seal a closed gate. Unless there is a modified rule in an expansion I don't have, I don't see anything in the rules that would indicate this gate closure would be anything other than a routine investigator-initiated gate closure. The card just gives the investigator a "freebie" without having to roll to close (since he passed the speed check instead).

Now if the card were to say "the gate closes" or "the gate disappears" then my ruling we be that you can't seal it because you didn't close it.

I guess I tend to follow the rule book to the letter as best as I can, but I am a very strong believer in house rules and allowing the table as a whole to make a decision on a less-than-clear rule issue.

At my house, this gate would seal.
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brian
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Edward Skullpipe wrote:
As strongly as Brian feels the rules state one thing, I equally strongly disagree. I don't think anyone short of the game designer or author of the rules can say "this is the way it is whether you agree or not".

It's not my interpretation but the interpretation of the design team. I have the unfair internet advantage because we have been working with FFG for the past several years on the FAQ. Life would be easier if they published it because I am tired of trying to keep straight where rulings are at any given moment.

You of course may play however you want.
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brian
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Peepers wrote:
That said, I will ask, in response to ColtsFan76, does our investigator get to keep the gate marker as a trophy (assume it's not the 'endless' gate)? It doesn't say that on the card, either. In "Closing Gates," (p.17) it says "If the investigator succeeds at this check, he closes the gate and takes the gate marker as a gate trophy." Also, the paragraph opens with the conditional "If, during the Arkham Encounters Phase, an investigator is in a location that contains an open gate and that investigator has acquired the explored marker, he may now attempt to close the gate." So you could argue that the investigator never made a legal roll to close, and would be ineligible to keep the trophy.

Sorry, I had to look this one up to be sure. We never asked this questions specifically (as opposed to the sealing question) so I do not see a definite answer.

However, questions that parallel this do state you CAN collect the trophy when a gate is closed.

Let me reiterate that both of the above answers are on the FAQ to be published. They could be changed but they were valid through the last update.
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Tibs
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It's worth mentioning that that exact encounter has been ruled both ways (yes, you may seal; no, you may not) to different people who asked. Personally I find the "yes" to be less complicated. That way you don't have to come up with a condition to explain why some may be sealed and others may not, in the event that the card doesn't specify.

Speaking of which: I know there are effects that say "close a gate but it cannot be sealed," but none that say "close a gate and it may be sealed." That seems to indicate what the default allowance is.
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Subramanian Krishnamurthy
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I read another post on sealing a gate, which said that sealing HAS to be done immediately after closing, I can't wait for the next turn for someone else to give me an elder sign etc. First of all, is my understanding correct? If so, doesn't the condition of not being able to seal if I close due to an OW encounter in contradiction to previous rule?
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subrak13 wrote:
I read another post on sealing a gate, which said that sealing HAS to be done immediately after closing, I can't wait for the next turn for someone else to give me an elder sign etc. First of all, is my understanding correct? If so, doesn't the condition of not being able to seal if I close due to an OW encounter in contradiction to previous rule?


1) Yes, that's correct.

2) So therefore - if this encounter does allow sealing, and I agree with Tibs that it is more consistent with other cards if it does - if you wanted to seal you would have to spend the 5 clues in the OW Encounter phase.

2a) If this encounter allows sealing, I would say that you had to use clues or the (expansion) Second Elder Sign Fragment to seal the gate. An Elder Sign could not be used because that only works on open gates, and you don't have one.
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Tibs
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I'm actually not sure how I feel about using an Elder Sign in such a situation.
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brian
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kungfro wrote:
Speaking of which: I know there are effects that say "close a gate but it cannot be sealed," but none that say "close a gate and it may be sealed." That seems to indicate what the default allowance is.

Not true. And actually, I would say the "default" is the other way around. I only have the database through Black Goat at work (so no Miskatonic, Lurker or revised CotDP). However, the only OW encounter I found of a gate being closed with no clarification on being allowed to seal it is the base game Blue Other OW encounter referenced above. Also found one instance of an Inner Sanctum closing a gate of your choice and 1 for Innsmouth if a gate to R'lyeh is out. So 3 total.

I found 4 instances of sealing going in hand with open gates. (There are also a few Arkham encounters that allow you to seal the location you are at either by spending clues or discarding an Elder sign while no gate is there; obviously, you are having an encounter there). Here are the 4 I found that do indeed give you permission to seal open gates....

Kingsport Horror, Celeano (Blue) wrote:
Before this trove of knowledge, your mind unlocks, for must not all books reflect the singularity of fact here recorded? Roll a die for each Tome you possess. If you roll any successes, return to Arkham and immediately close this gate, which you may seal normally.


Curse of the Dark Pharaoh (original), Abyss (Blue) wrote:
You look into a pool of water and see someone! Choose another investigator and make a Will (-2) check.

Successes:
0) He is drawn into the Abyss.
1-2) You and he switch places
3+) You move to his location, and the gate through which you entered the Abyss is sealed.


Curse of the Dark Pharaoh (original), Celeano (Blue) wrote:
Make a Fight (+0) or Will (+0) check. If you pass, you push through the walls of fatigue and confusion and realize what must be done. You may seal the gate through which you entered, but only by sacrificing yourself. If you choose to seal the gate, you are devoured.


Curse of the Dark Pharaoh (original), Yuggoth (Yellow) wrote:
The Mi-Go offer immortality…of a sort. If you accept, you are devoured, except that you keep all of your Spells, Skills, and Clue tokens, to be used with your next investigator. Then close and seal a gate to Yuggoth, if one is open.
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Tibs
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Thanks for saving me the trouble and dragging those up. But I would say that only the first one counts towards the discussion, because it's the only one that closes a gate and then explicitly tells you you may seal it. The other three seal as an effect and don't require clues or an Elder Sign.
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brian
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kungfro wrote:
Thanks for saving me the trouble and dragging those up. But I would say that only the first one counts towards the discussion, because it's the only one that closes a gate and then explicitly tells you you may seal it. The other three seal as an effect and don't require clues or an Elder Sign.

I think they are all relevant since the discussion is if the encounters have to give you permission or not to seal gates.

Regardless, i stand by my statement and the last FAQ I have seen that said you can only seal if the card gives you permission.
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Jack M
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
kungfro wrote:
Thanks for saving me the trouble and dragging those up. But I would say that only the first one counts towards the discussion, because it's the only one that closes a gate and then explicitly tells you you may seal it. The other three seal as an effect and don't require clues or an Elder Sign.

I think they are all relevant since the discussion is if the encounters have to give you permission or not to seal gates.

Regardless, i stand by my statement and the last FAQ I have seen that said you can only seal if the card gives you permission.


Forget the FAQ, how about the actual rulebook? The rulebook states "If an investigator successfully closes a gate, he may immediately spend five Clue tokens to permanently seal it." The card states, "you automatically close the gate." The card does NOT say "the gate is closed" or any other variant of that. It says YOU close the gate.

As long as you can agree that "you" and "an investigator" mean the same thing in this case, the investigator (you) is able to seal. It would take some tremendous verbal gymnastics to rule otherwise in my opinion.
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Subramanian Krishnamurthy
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I think this is a very important question that needs to be cleared up. Being able to close and seal does due to an encounter does make it a lot easier . Waiting for the experts to reply on this one.
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brian
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jack21222 wrote:
Forget the FAQ, how about the actual rulebook?

I always love this argument. Sure, let's forget a key piece of the evidence so that we can get the exact answer we want. "Look I am floating 20 inches above the ground! Forget the chair holding me up!"

Come on, you can't just forget the FAQ. Rules can be wrong. Rules can have unintended consequences. FAQ's are ways to correct and clarify.

Are you going to tell me that you ignore the FAQ responses on how to handle the final battle successes because the rule book improperly explains it?

Quote:
The rulebook states "If an investigator successfully closes a gate, he may immediately spend five Clue tokens to permanently seal it." The card states, "you automatically close the gate." The card does NOT say "the gate is closed" or any other variant of that. It says YOU close the gate.

As long as you can agree that "you" and "an investigator" mean the same thing in this case, the investigator (you) is able to seal. It would take some tremendous verbal gymnastics to rule otherwise in my opinion.

And I would send you back to the section immediately before that. In order to CLOSE a gate you have to roll for it during the Arkham Encounter phase after you return.

Quote:
If, during the Arkham Encounters Phase, an investigator
is on a location that contains an open gate and that
investigator has acquired the explored marker, he may
now attempt to close the gate.


Where does it say you can close it during the Other World Phase? Where does it say that a card can close it for you (you the player, you the investigator, it matters not)? It doesn't.

We have a rule written for a specific time in the game. Close it at Point A if you meet condition B. Next section says, if you have done that seal it immediately with Clues. You are trying to seal with condition X at Point Y and it makes no provision for that.

So we DO have ambiguity. Nowhere do the rules account for this possibility. Now we have cards that specifically allow you to seal. So the absence of it on other cards implies that it is not allowed.

Enter the FAQ for clarification. The current answer is you can't unless specifically allowed. That may change, it may not.

I would prefer to play the way they intend. You can house rule it how you want. Again, it is not my verbal gymnastics that need to impress you. If a ruling comes out, it matters not what the rule book says. if you don't like the ruling, more power to you: go play a house rule.
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Jon Dennis
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
jack21222 wrote:
Forget the FAQ, how about the actual rulebook?

I always love this argument. Sure, let's forget a key piece of the evidence so that we can get the exact answer we want.

Except that the "last FAQ [you've] seen" does NOT EXIST for the general public. Until it does, everything is hearsay.
The last FAQ WE have seen is from January 4, 2007. It never addresses when you can or cannot seal a gate. If there is a more recent official copy, please direct me towards it.
Your arguments are just as valid as anybody else's.
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brian
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macgowan wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
jack21222 wrote:
Forget the FAQ, how about the actual rulebook?

I always love this argument. Sure, let's forget a key piece of the evidence so that we can get the exact answer we want.

Except that the "last FAQ [you've] seen" does NOT EXIST for the general public. Until it does, everything is hearsay.
The last FAQ WE have seen is from January 4, 2007. It never addresses when you can or cannot seal a gate. If there is a more recent official copy, please direct me towards it.
Your arguments are just as valid as anybody else's.

Yes. But there are two camps here: 1) hold to what you believe is right or 2) trust those involved with what the intent it. It is obviously a point of contention and has been for a long time. It is not clear in the rules and that is why it is on the FAQ.

Again, my preference would be to play the way intended. Claiming ignorance is one thing but once it is pointed out to you - you have the above choice to make.

So are we done now? Can we agree to disagree?
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