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Subject: 3-hero game=really unbalanced rss

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Asdrubael Vect
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Imo it is very very difficult for the heroes to win..nearly impossible.we tried this today in a triple session(!!!) with no luck at all even with good heroes(Mordrog,Spiritspeaker Mok etc.)..I think we have to take 1 more hero controllable by everyone.. wow
 
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Brian M
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In the base game, I thought the best balance was generally best with 3 heroes, which gave a game that was reasonably close, though possibly tilted a little toward the heroes.

Which scenarios were you playing and were you using any expansion rules?
 
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StormKnight wrote:
In the base game, I thought the best balance was generally best with 3 heroes, which gave a game that was reasonably close, though possibly tilted a little toward the heroes.

Which scenarios were you playing and were you using any expansion rules?

Vanilla Descent without any expansion rules just the latest faq for JITD.
Quest 5-Last wishes-ATTENTION!!!do not spoil anything plz as we haven't completed it yet!!!
ps.the best balance is generally with 3 heroes???no way and that's because you cannot keep LOS as good for summoning purposes,the stats of the monsters are the same except one to two wounds,the number of monsters is the same...we've tried it with 3 different parties consisting of v.good heroes and skills.period
ps2.http://www.descentinthedark.com/info/game_balance_in_descent... you should take that into consideration mate
 
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Mark McG
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Asdrubael1985 wrote:

Vanilla Descent without any expansion rules just the latest faq for JITD.
Quest 5-Last wishes-ATTENTION!!!do not spoil anything plz as we haven't completed it yet!!!


which Area of Quest 5, because Area 1 IS tough with 3, and tough with 4 I'm told.

OTOH, Quest 1 with 3 heroes is still pro-Hero (but not much)
 
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Minedog3 wrote:
Asdrubael1985 wrote:

Vanilla Descent without any expansion rules just the latest faq for JITD.
Quest 5-Last wishes-ATTENTION!!!do not spoil anything plz as we haven't completed it yet!!!


which Area of Quest 5, because Area 1 IS tough with 3, and tough with 4 I'm told.

OTOH, Quest 1 with 3 heroes is still pro-Hero (but not much)

In our 1st attempt we've died in round 1,area 1(Lindel..ffs!)!!!In our 2nd attempt in area 1 also with new heroes!Last try ended near the end of area 2...we've had bad luck but come on..!we are not noobs anymore.It is v.difficult even if i like challenges...
ps.quest 1 and 2 are a practice from my point of view,so it doesn't matter quest 3 gets to the point,quest 4 introduces the real big monsters,quest 5..i have a bad feeling about this...wow plz do not say anything more about this quest just say your opinions about balance,thanx in advance.
 
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Mark McG
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Asdrubael1985 wrote:
plz do not say anything more about this quest just say your opinions about balance,thanx in advance.


I've found 4 hero Descent pretty pro-Hero, and really if I didn't win in Area 1, there is maybe 1 other point in mid-game where OL victory is achievable. Good players will clear a room usually without any counterattack until the boss.

3 hero Descent is pretty balanced in my view, but some Areas are much tougher for 3.

If I was designing Descent balance, I'd have additional monsters vs. 4 heroes and less against 2 heroes (rather than stranger/weaker monsters). I'd also let the OL setup the room contents in any configuration to increase replayability. As the Quest progressed, the monsters would get stronger (in line with the number of chests opened). Perhaps a free Power per chest opened? Alternatively, limit the number of drawn treasures to the stated number per chest (not per hero). My 2c
 
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Minedog3 wrote:
Asdrubael1985 wrote:
plz do not say anything more about this quest just say your opinions about balance,thanx in advance.


I've found 4 hero Descent pretty pro-Hero, and really if I didn't win in Area 1, there is maybe 1 other point in mid-game where OL victory is achievable. Good players will clear a room usually without any counterattack until the boss.

3 hero Descent is pretty balanced in my view, but some Areas are much tougher for 3.

If I was designing Descent balance, I'd have additional monsters vs. 4 heroes and less against 2 heroes (rather than stranger/weaker monsters). I'd also let the OL setup the room contents in any configuration to increase replayability. As the Quest progressed, the monsters would get stronger (in line with the number of chests opened). Perhaps a free Power per chest opened? Alternatively, limit the number of drawn treasures to the stated number per chest (not per hero). My 2c

Without any counterattack???!!How's that possible?The 1st room has hordes of monsters...With 3 is hard to v.hard to clear it-depends on the xp of the players-beware counterattacks are always there!,with 4 i think it would be much better to progress and more balanced.
 
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Martin Plourde
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Asdrubael1985 wrote:

Without any counterattack???!!How's that possible?

Are you sure you aren't playing some OL and monster activation rules wrong?
 
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Asdrubael1985 wrote:

Without any counterattack???!!How's that possible?The 1st room has hordes of monsters...With 3 is hard to v.hard to clear it-depends on the xp of the players-beware counterattacks are always there!,with 4 i think it would be much better to progress and more balanced.


I think you have taken this out of context, I wasn't talking about 3 players on Area 1, Quest 5 but more generally.

However, to give examples. With 4 heroes, in Quest 4 the Start Area had 3 monsters left by the end of the fourth hero activation of Turn 1, and one of those only survived because they miscalculated an LOS. Area 5 was massacred without reply (blast weapon followed by ranged followed by 2 melee heroes), Area 4 would have been massacred except for some outstanding undying rolls (3 in a row I think).

4 heroes full of fatigue are putting out 8 attacks, and generally one shot monsters. There is also a certain phalanx like quality to the hero play.

Now Area 1 Quest 5 is tough, in part because it has few defensive locations, and 3 heroes aren't enough to block access well.
 
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Martin518 wrote:
Asdrubael1985 wrote:

Without any counterattack???!!How's that possible?

Are you sure you aren't playing some OL and monster activation rules wrong?

Yes i'm sure we are playing it correctly.
 
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Minedog3 wrote:
Asdrubael1985 wrote:

Without any counterattack???!!How's that possible?The 1st room has hordes of monsters...With 3 is hard to v.hard to clear it-depends on the xp of the players-beware counterattacks are always there!,with 4 i think it would be much better to progress and more balanced.


I think you have taken this out of context, I wasn't talking about 3 players on Area 1, Quest 5 but more generally.

However, to give examples. With 4 heroes, in Quest 4 the Start Area had 3 monsters left by the end of the fourth hero activation of Turn 1, and one of those only survived because they miscalculated an LOS. Area 5 was massacred without reply (blast weapon followed by ranged followed by 2 melee heroes), Area 4 would have been massacred except for some outstanding undying rolls (3 in a row I think).

4 heroes full of fatigue are putting out 8 attacks, and generally one shot monsters. There is also a certain phalanx like quality to the hero play.

Now Area 1 Quest 5 is tough, in part because it has few defensive locations, and 3 heroes aren't enough to block access well.

Agreed one word describes the situation on quest 5;tough,tough as nails...
 
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I've only played Last Wishes once with 4 heroes. They won, but it was pretty balanced, so I can see 3 heroes being a little tougher.
 
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DeePee wrote:
I've only played Last Wishes once with 4 heroes. They won, but it was pretty balanced, so I can see 3 heroes being a little tougher.

Yeap with 4 heroes my experience tells me that it is an OK..with 3 though...3 consecutive losses is something bad for the balance of the game i think..surprise
 
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Corbon Loughnan
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Asdrubael1985 wrote:
even with good heroes(Mordrog,Spiritspeaker Mok etc.)


Its difficult to trust that you are doing things right when your judgement is so bad.
Mordrog fits strictly into the 'average' category of heroes and Mok is pretty terrible (bottom 5 IMO).
So judging by your classification of hero quality, you might need to get a bit more experience playing the game before condemning playing with 3 heroes.

3 heroes is definitely harder than 4, but many people seem to be able to handle it, at least for vanilla descent with no expansions.

But I definitely prefer a 4-hero game, so I'm with you there.
 
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Asdrubael Vect
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corbon wrote:
Asdrubael1985 wrote:
even with good heroes(Mordrog,Spiritspeaker Mok etc.)


Its difficult to trust that you are doing things right when your judgement is so bad.
Mordrog fits strictly into the 'average' category of heroes and Mok is pretty terrible (bottom 5 IMO).
So judging by your classification of hero quality, you might need to get a bit more experience playing the game before condemning playing with 3 heroes.

3 heroes is definitely harder than 4, but many people seem to be able to handle it, at least for vanilla descent with no expansions.

But I definitely prefer a 4-hero game, so I'm with you there.

Mordrog avrg?Mok terrible?Lol!We had to play it with 3 heroes,we didn't have a choice..and i don't think i need more exp to judge a)if the game sucks with 4 players or b)the hero quality...fewer heroes mean less LOS,less attacks,less tactics.1 fewer wound for the beastman is NOT balance when he can devastate you with the same dmg output and abilities.
ps.i didn't tell that there is not a chance to handle it,but that it is way more difficult and more unbalanced because you roll dice no matter what strategy you play.
ps2.i don't like the 'teacher' or 'goshu' style of yours mate,keep it low,you are not the only one with brains here.
 
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Brian M
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Quote:
plz do not say anything more about this quest just say your opinions about balance,thanx in advance.

Its not really possible to discuss much about balance in Descent outside of a quest, since the set-up of the quest has a huge impact in determining the balance of the game. For example, if you have two areas with the exact same monsters, but one is a straight path and one winds constantly, the second one will be a lot harder on the heroes since the OL will be able to spawn more. The actual monsters waiting on the board will change up the game even more.

Yes, Descent doesn't scale well. Within a given quest, the game gets harder on the OL as you add in more heroes. The minor stat increases and extra threat don't compensate out the extra hero attacks.

HP boosts are extra odd though. Descent doesn't have much "attrition" with most of the small monsters - you usually one-shot kill them. However, if +1 HP pushes a monster to above the normal one-shot HP value, it suddenly becomes, in a way, almost twice as hard to kill.

Having played through all the base set games, most multiple times, I feel that the best balance is with 3 heroes on most of them. Quest 1 is just a cakewalk for the heroes. Some quests are more lopsided one way or the other, and some really favor certain types of heroes. Most quests will still play fine with 4 heroes, though they may favor the heroes a little. In fact, I'd say the game may actually be more fun with 4 heroes, even if its more slanted toward the heroes. Many of the quests will be nearly unplayable with only 2 heroes, as the heroes will just get creamed in the opening room.

Just for the hell of it, I set up Area 1 of Quest 5 and ran some heroes through it to see what would happened.

I used Spiritspeeker Mok and Mordrog, as you mentioned. For a third I took Silhouette (first missile character I came to). Random skills. Sil got Cautious, which gives the OL 1 fewer threat per turn. That plus Mok would make things a bit slow for the OL. Mordrog had 3 skills that work when battling, which is a good combo, but Knight requires spending 2 fatigue, which Mordrog only has 3 of.

No spoilers here past what you find when you open the door to the first area. Does this look anything like the sort of situations you see?

Round 1:

Mok opens the door, moves in and kills 1 beastman.
Sil sprints across the hall and grabs the chest, getting 2 treasures per hero.
Mord battles with Knight moving him in and kills 1 more beastman.

The skeletons pepper Mord with arrows. The first one bounces off his armor, the second knocks him off guard. The Master Beastmen move in and attack Mord, taking him to 10 damage.

Round 2:
Mord battles and kills the Master Beastmen, though he can't activate knight.
Sil kills a spider and a beastman on the side. She misses her first shot on the beastman, but rapid fire lets her finish it off.
Mok trades with Mord to switch around treasures to give them more appropriate weapons and kills another beastman.

The OL replaces the beastman losses by spawning another beastman warparty right around the corner, and then Dark Charms Mord to make him attack himself. That plus the new beastman kill Mordrog, and let the OL beat the heck out of Mok leaving him with 2 wounds left.

The heroes are at 1 wound - very perilous! 2 more wounds on Mok would have ended the game right there. This area sure looks nasty on the heroes.

Round 3
Sil kills 1 beastman and hands her Crystal of Tival to Mok.
Mord burns fatigue to get back from town and kill a Master Beastman.
Mok uses the crystal to get out of death's door, kills 2 beastmen, and uses fatigue to get the heck out of the way.

The OL moves in; one skeleton makes a run to try to finish off Mok, but doesn't do enough damage.

Round 4
Mord manages to miss the skeleton threatening Mok, advances forward and drinks a fatigue potion.
Mok decides to clear a path and battles. He kills the skeleton near him, burns all his fatigue to get into position to shoot the last skeleton lurking in the middle...and the OL inconsiderately drops him in a pit at the end of his move.
Sil ignores the spider coming from behind and rushes forward to activate the center rune and kill the skellie that Mok was supposed to kill.

The OL spawns a razorwing flock. Not the best spawn, but you take what you've got when you really want to do just a few more damage. The razorwings fly in and kill Mok. The heroes are now at 2 CT.

Round 5
Mord slices up the razorwings and moves into position to kill the spider with a guard order.
Sil runs forward and grabs the second chest. Yay, 2 CT!
Mok shops, then comes back in and tries to kill the last beastman - and misses.

The beastman attacks Mok, but his Shadow Cloak works extra well and Mok only takes 1 damage.

Round 6
Mok kills the last beastman - the area is now monster free.
All the heroes head to the stairs. Everyone is now in position to go down next turn. With no immediate way of doing much damage, the OL saves threat - there will be a DOOM coming later, but its going to take some saving for.

End of Area 1
The heroes are down 1 CT from where they started. They are mostly at full health (Sil has 3 poison wounds and Mok has 1 wound). Everyone has an upgraded weapon and Mok and Mord have upgraded armor.

And then I realized I'd completely forgotten Mord's ability to gain 1 fatigue every time he got hurt. Whoops! That would have let him use Knight back in Round 2, which could have been very useful.
 
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StormKnight wrote:
Quote:
plz do not say anything more about this quest just say your opinions about balance,thanx in advance.

Its not really possible to discuss much about balance in Descent outside of a quest, since the set-up of the quest has a huge impact in determining the balance of the game. For example, if you have two areas with the exact same monsters, but one is a straight path and one winds constantly, the second one will be a lot harder on the heroes since the OL will be able to spawn more. The actual monsters waiting on the board will change up the game even more.

Yes, Descent doesn't scale well. Within a given quest, the game gets harder on the OL as you add in more heroes. The minor stat increases and extra threat don't compensate out the extra hero attacks.

HP boosts are extra odd though. Descent doesn't have much "attrition" with most of the small monsters - you usually one-shot kill them. However, if +1 HP pushes a monster to above the normal one-shot HP value, it suddenly becomes, in a way, almost twice as hard to kill.

Having played through all the base set games, most multiple times, I feel that the best balance is with 3 heroes on most of them. Quest 1 is just a cakewalk for the heroes. Some quests are more lopsided one way or the other, and some really favor certain types of heroes. Most quests will still play fine with 4 heroes, though they may favor the heroes a little. In fact, I'd say the game may actually be more fun with 4 heroes, even if its more slanted toward the heroes. Many of the quests will be nearly unplayable with only 2 heroes, as the heroes will just get creamed in the opening room.

Just for the hell of it, I set up Area 1 of Quest 5 and ran some heroes through it to see what would happened.

I used Spiritspeeker Mok and Mordrog, as you mentioned. For a third I took Silhouette (first missile character I came to). Random skills. Sil got Cautious, which gives the OL 1 fewer threat per turn. That plus Mok would make things a bit slow for the OL. Mordrog had 3 skills that work when battling, which is a good combo, but Knight requires spending 2 fatigue, which Mordrog only has 3 of.

No spoilers here past what you find when you open the door to the first area. Does this look anything like the sort of situations you see?

Round 1:

Mok opens the door, moves in and kills 1 beastman.
Sil sprints across the hall and grabs the chest, getting 2 treasures per hero.
Mord battles with Knight moving him in and kills 1 more beastman.

The skeletons pepper Mord with arrows. The first one bounces off his armor, the second knocks him off guard. The Master Beastmen move in and attack Mord, taking him to 10 damage.

Round 2:
Mord battles and kills the Master Beastmen, though he can't activate knight.
Sil kills a spider and a beastman on the side. She misses her first shot on the beastman, but rapid fire lets her finish it off.
Mok trades with Mord to switch around treasures to give them more appropriate weapons and kills another beastman.

The OL replaces the beastman losses by spawning another beastman warparty right around the corner, and then Dark Charms Mord to make him attack himself. That plus the new beastman kill Mordrog, and let the OL beat the heck out of Mok leaving him with 2 wounds left.

The heroes are at 1 wound - very perilous! 2 more wounds on Mok would have ended the game right there. This area sure looks nasty on the heroes.

Round 3
Sil kills 1 beastman and hands her Crystal of Tival to Mok.
Mord burns fatigue to get back from town and kill a Master Beastman.
Mok uses the crystal to get out of death's door, kills 2 beastmen, and uses fatigue to get the heck out of the way.

The OL moves in; one skeleton makes a run to try to finish off Mok, but doesn't do enough damage.

Round 4
Mord manages to miss the skeleton threatening Mok, advances forward and drinks a fatigue potion.
Mok decides to clear a path and battles. He kills the skeleton near him, burns all his fatigue to get into position to shoot the last skeleton lurking in the middle...and the OL inconsiderately drops him in a pit at the end of his move.
Sil ignores the spider coming from behind and rushes forward to activate the center rune and kill the skellie that Mok was supposed to kill.

The OL spawns a razorwing flock. Not the best spawn, but you take what you've got when you really want to do just a few more damage. The razorwings fly in and kill Mok. The heroes are now at 2 CT.

Round 5
Mord slices up the razorwings and moves into position to kill the spider with a guard order.
Sil runs forward and grabs the second chest. Yay, 2 CT!
Mok shops, then comes back in and tries to kill the last beastman - and misses.

The beastman attacks Mok, but his Shadow Cloak works extra well and Mok only takes 1 damage.

Round 6
Mok kills the last beastman - the area is now monster free.
All the heroes head to the stairs. Everyone is now in position to go down next turn. With no immediate way of doing much damage, the OL saves threat - there will be a DOOM coming later, but its going to take some saving for.

End of Area 1
The heroes are down 1 CT from where they started. They are mostly at full health (Sil has 3 poison wounds and Mok has 1 wound). Everyone has an upgraded weapon and Mok and Mord have upgraded armor.

And then I realized I'd completely forgotten Mord's ability to gain 1 fatigue every time he got hurt. Whoops! That would have let him use Knight back in Round 2, which could have been very useful.

Nice for a fictional report I should have taken a video of our sessions to show you..maybe next time..
ps.nice reply mate
 
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