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Subject: Well yes... I like it. But is this a game? rss

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Branko K.
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I've put off giving my $0.02 about Dixit for the longest time because.. well.. I just don't know what my $0.02 about Dixit actually are. Do I like it? Or do I just respect it? Can I recommend this? Or should I warn people against it?

Ok.. from the top.

Dixit is basically a set of pictures. Pretty, pastel pictures you might expect to see in a children's book. Except that each picture often has a slightly bizarre or surreal detail about it. Here, let me steal a random picture from the gallery:



Entire point of the game is to each turn have a "storyteller" who chooses a picture from his hand, and then finds a phrase that will clearly, but not too obviously allude to that picture. Other folks who aren't the storyteller that turn will pick a card from their hand which they feel also suits the phrase, in the hopes that someone will pick their picture. Storyteller wants to have someone guess his picture, but not everyone. Everyone else wants to have at least someone pick their own picture. There's a point system involved, and, well.. that's about it.

There's an obvious reason why so many people like this game. Everything about it is so relaxing, almost zen. The pictures are all pretty and calming, even the slightly disturbing ones. There's something pleasantly creative and pseudoartistic about watching the pictures and trying to think up of a phrase that will just slightly (but adequately) hint at your picture. It's also satisfying to raise the game on another level and try to go inside storyteller's head - why did he/she pick that exact hint? Is he trying to be clever? Is she just having fun?

Then again, there are also obvious reasons why people DISlike this game. Mostly it's because this may only be called a game if you stretch this term to its utter limits. It's only enough of a game to give you a feeling you are playing a game - but that's about it. I cannot openly say that Dixit as a game is broken.... but it sure is insanely fragile. No, it's not broken, but it's horribly easy to break, even when you are not trying to.

Why do I say this? Because this is a game you simply must not play to win. If you do, you will break it. Being competitive just doesn't cut it, and more competitive you are, the more the game will be ruined. Now while the optimal strategy - agreeing on obscure hints with another person before the game, or using foreign language - will probably be instantly scorned by everyone, there are multiple shades of grey where competitive person can break the game in "acceptable" ways. Perhaps he can use weird hints from previous games which he knows new players will not get but old will be reminded of. Or he can rely on inside jokes and esoteric knowledge to easily alienate some of the players. Or he can simply use generic hints like "night" or "sky" and rely on statistic probability that his card will be among the chosen ones, like for example if the hint for these ones was "sea":



But that's against the spirit of the game!, you yell. You shouldn't be playing like that! To which I can reply.. why? Is anything I mentioned against the rules? Is "playing to win" not the point of a "game"?

This is the biggest issue I have with Dixit. You just cannot play it "seriously". Everything about it screams "enjoy this, but forget about winning". Even the horribly dysfunctional scoreboard seems to be designed specifically for it to be forgotten about and eventually discarded. Did you count the points correctly? Who is in the lead? Who won the last game? Well.. who cares?

Now when I think about it, I really do not remember who won any of our last few games. In fact, I'm pretty sure in some games we didn't really check who won. Sure, we were counting the points, moving those little rabbits around the darn meadow, but that was all to keep the rational, calculating parts of our brain busy - so our artistic part could happily without interruptions think about weird, poetic hints and then enjoy when some of the other players get it. Were the games enjoyable? Sure. Who was the best, and who was the worst? I have absolutely no idea.

So yeah.. I think I can safely end on this note. Might just as well, anything I say will just reiterate what I think I told already - I like Dixit. It's fun. It's relaxing. It's perfect for people who aren't competitive. It's great for people who hate boardgames. You will probably never regret putting it on the table, be it as a filler with the more serious group or as a main course for more casual folks. But... it's not a game. A group mental exercise perhaps, a fun, slightly artistic way to spend time... just do not consider it a game. Or better yet - fool yourself into thinking that it's a game, but stop as soon as words such as "strategy" or "winning" enter your mind.

Should you buy this? Well I can tell you that at least. Just answer this simple question... can a bottomless ship of the heart sail through the endless desert of thoughts?

-googoo--
-- - -
--
-
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Jeffrey Nolin
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What did John Lennon say about mind games? Perhaps he was future referencing Dixit.
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Caitlyn Paget
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Very interesting review, and it's nice to hear something negative but also very respectful - especially about a game that's seen as one of the top three in the genre.

I loved Dixit after my first play, but after a couple more I've become less enthused. It's still the only "board game" that my mother will play, so I will play it and even suggest it at family events. But if I truly had a choice, I'm not sure that I'd ever want to play it again.

My problem is that the game ends up being a little self-congratulatory. The person making up the clue can get all wrapped up in their own cleverness and how amazing their own clue is. And it definitely promotes the use of obscure references and can make people feel excluded when they don't "get it."

Just like Apples to Apples devolves into an exercise of putting in the dirtiest interpretation possible, I'm worried that underneath Dixit's creative-game facade lies a simplistic contest of finding the best inside reference...

Honestly, I'd rather play Eat Poop You Cat. It's also not really a game, but everyone ends up feeling included and enjoys the hilarity - regardless of ability.



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Patrick C.
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While I appreciate the general positive review, insisting that this is not a game is elitist and an example of why modern hardcore serious board gamers turn off the non-converted.

Of course it's a game. If games that rely heavily on psychology and reading people aren't "real games" then you might as well say Poker isn't a game.
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Maarten D. de Jong
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travvller wrote:
While I appreciate the general positive review, insisting that this is not a game is elitist and an example of why modern hardcore serious board gamers turn off the non-converted. Of course it's a game. If games that rely heavily on psychology and reading people aren't "real games" then you might as well say Poker isn't a game.

Wrong analogy, I'm afraid. But since noone but a hardcore gamer would care about what a game actually is; and anybody who seriously argues this mathematical-philosophical point in the relaxed environment of non-gamers intending to play 'a game of Dixit' is a total douchebag, I think the 'elitist' argument in practice never gets out of the starting blocks. I agree with the OP in that Dixit is really huddling very close the boundaries of what we usually think of as a 'game': there's nothing elitist about that. And calling it a game (or not) sure as heck doesn't influence in any way the fact that it provides a fun and/or engrossing activity for many.
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Branko K.
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travvller wrote:
While I appreciate the general positive review, insisting that this is not a game is elitist and an example of why modern hardcore serious board gamers turn off the non-converted.


Yay, the first "you are being a BGG snob" comment.

I clearly and openly told you why I do not consider this a game - because it pretends to be competitive while at the same time completely discouraging competitive play. It's the only game in my collection where I must actively try NOT to employ strategy or tactics, in fact the only game where I occasionally need to TELL people not to employ strategy and tactics. It's kinda like saying "look, now we will race to the finish, but let's not try to run as fast as we can, let's try to use the same tempo and just enjoy the run". This doesn't mean we cannot all enjoy our run or have fun, but we are not racing anymore, we are running and pretending we are racing. How is it elitist to say afterwards that we had a great time, even though we cannot call what we did a "race"?

So my review is an "example of why modern hardcore serious board gamers turn off the non-converted"? Umm.. ok. But still I must notice that this particular non-converted is a very poor/selective reader since he obviously didn't bother to get past the title. And about that person I have only one thing to say - good riddance, if reading more then ten words is more than he can handle, then I'm pretty sure boardgaming hobby is not for him.
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baba44713 wrote:
Yay, the first "you are being a BGG snob" comment.


I think your reply (and not just this quote) is unnecessarily rude and aggressive.

I read your review (yes, all of it) and whilst I thought your central argument was spot-on, I too thought the "is this a game?" question to be rather odd. Just because something can't be taken too seriously doesn't mean it can't be called a game. You just start a debate on semantics that doesn't support your argument.
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Branko K.
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ReggieMcFly wrote:
baba44713 wrote:
Yay, the first "you are being a BGG snob" comment.


I think your reply (and not just this quote) is unnecessarily rude and aggressive.

I read your review (yes, all of it) and whilst I thought your central argument was spot-on, I too thought the "is this a game?" question to be rather odd. Just because something can't be taken too seriously doesn't mean it can't be called a game. You just start a debate on semantics that doesn't support your argument.


If I was rude, it's only because I feel it's pretty damn insulting to call out someone who tries very hard to draw people to this hobby as "elitist" and accuses him of "turning off the non-converted". It's one thing to argue the semantics of what "game" is, and quite another to infer conclusions about the effect of my review on non-gamers.

We can argue what "game" is until we are blue in the face and that's fine. I'm down. But taking my words out of context and using it to single me out as an example of why serious boardgamers are detrimental to the hobby is unnecessary and offensive.

So anyways, sorry for being blunt and not passive-aggressive like that guy up there. But I prefer saying openly what I think, and I'm pretty happy to pay the price of getting less thumbs. It's not like I have any bloody use for them anyways.
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Pieter
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I don't agree with your statement that Dixit shouldn't be played to win. While it goes without saying that devising secret rules with another player before the game starts ("If the sentence I say begins with an A, it is the first card...") would kill off the fun, I think it is within the spirit of the game to try to come up with sentences that you know some of the players will grasp, but others won't. Actually, I think that is what the game is about. And while it might be a successful strategy, it is also a risky one: what if the person who you intended to understand it, did not get it? What if your hint is in fact a tad too obvious and is grasped by everyone? What if you are simply giving away too many points to one other player and lose the game thereby?

There is nothing in the rules about what sentences are and are not allowed, and I think that is deliberate.

The only rule we have in place is that you cannot re-use the same sentence for a picture in another game; you must be original and cannot rely on players' memories of earlier games.
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We are lucky enough to define general rules before the game starts (no clues unaccesible to some players, etc) and have everybody playing to win within those rules. The game is competitive and we all have fun!

So for us it is definitely a game, and some of us are definitely better at it than others.
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The Freshmaker
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baba44713 wrote:
Everything about it is so relaxing, almost zen.


Completely off topic, but if anyone thinks Zen is some kind of peaceful, blissful state (or something you can buy in a box with the word "Zen" somewhere on it), I would invite you to sit 20 minutes of zazen (seated meditation) and tell me afterwards how peaceful you felt with your knees aching and your mind racing around.

Back on topic, great review. Yes, this "game" is not for everyone. But it is very entertaining and much more tolerable than Apples to Apples.
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Hunter Bennett-Daggett
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Flyboy Connor wrote:
I don't agree with your statement that Dixit shouldn't be played to win. While it goes without saying that devising secret rules with another player before the game starts ("If the sentence I say begins with an A, it is the first card...") would kill off the fun, I think it is within the spirit of the game to try to come up with sentences that you know some of the players will grasp, but others won't. Actually, I think that is what the game is about. And while it might be a successful strategy, it is also a risky one: what if the person who you intended to understand it, did not get it? What if your hint is in fact a tad too obvious and is grasped by everyone? What if you are simply giving away too many points to one other player and lose the game thereby?

There is nothing in the rules about what sentences are and are not allowed, and I think that is deliberate.

The only rule we have in place is that you cannot re-use the same sentence for a picture in another game; you must be original and cannot rely on players' memories of earlier games.


While I enjoyed the review, I'd have to say I agree more with this. I've played Dixit two or three times now, played to win (I can, theoretically, do otherwise, but it's not easy!), and had fun. I'm not sure I liked it enough to buy it, but I would consider it. Anyway, as Flyboy said, I definitely feel it's possible to play with a strategy. I haven't found there to be many layers to that strategy, in my couple of plays, and it certainly doesn't guarantee success, but it worked pretty well. You just have to learn the right zone between "well yeah, obviously" and "WHAT?" for the group you're playing with.

I'd generally rather play a game with more available strategies than just that, but I do still think Dixit is a real game with at least one real, if simple, strategy.
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Kai Drange
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Nice review, but I as well disagree with you claiming you can't play to win. When we play all of us try to win as best we can and that works just fine. Your points about having secret deals or use references that only some of the players are able to possibly know would in my book be considered cheating, and not at all being strategic or "playing to win".

To be fair, I think the rulebook could have had a specific rule stating that all players should have a reasonable chance of understanding the hint. No "What we had for dinner yesterday" when only my girlfriend could know what that was. But again, to me and everyone I have played with, this goes without saying.
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I think those of us who are competitive gamers can be a bit of a terror when playing with our non-gamer friends and family, and a game like Dixit is a refreshing change because it negates the advantages we have in most games. There is skill involved, but it's highly unusual and more social than analytic. I think that can lead to the conclusion that it's a not a game (if it was a game, I'd be winning!).

But I think that's a false conclusion. The rules are clear, and any group can deal with what is or is not acceptable, just as we do in other games. In my case at least, I find myself not even worrying about who's ahead when I play Dixit. I know my youngest son (who much prefers cooperative games to competitive ones) will likely thrash us no matter how well I play, so best just to sit back and enjoy the ride.

This is what's great about Dixit - it levels the playing field by not rewarding the skill set that we gamers normally employ. In most games with non-gamers, we can dominate or magnanimously 'play easy', but either way we're still in control. With Dixit, we get the view from the other side, and that change of perspective can be liberating. Embrace it, and it may provide at least a little insight into how non-gamers approach cutthroat games when they play with people like us.

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Abhoth_ wrote:
Nice review, but I as well disagree with you claiming you can't play to win. When we play all of us try to win as best we can and that works just fine. Your points about having secret deals or use references that only some of the players are able to possibly know would in my book be considered cheating, and not at all being strategic or "playing to win".

To be fair, I think the rulebook could have had a specific rule stating that all players should have a reasonable chance of understanding the hint. No "What we had for dinner yesterday" when only my girlfriend could know what that was. But again, to me and everyone I have played with, this goes without saying.

Given that the rules say nothing about that, how does it go without saying that it is "cheating" to say something "that only some of the players are able to possibly know" (and how do you even define that? How can you know in general whether I know something? Does everyone know "To be or not to be" is from Shakespeare? Does everyone know from which specific play of Shakespeare?)
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I don't agree that Dixit is "not a game" but I will say it is a very light game...a very different game...and could be considered more of an exercise than a game for us. That said, we have a very competitive group and winning always seems to matter.
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ReggieMcFly wrote:
baba44713 wrote:
Yay, the first "you are being a BGG snob" comment.

I think your reply (and not just this quote) is unnecessarily rude and aggressive.

Just for the record, attacking the user instead of debating his argument, is also unnecessarily rude and aggressive
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russ wrote:
Abhoth_ wrote:
Nice review, but I as well disagree with you claiming you can't play to win. When we play all of us try to win as best we can and that works just fine. Your points about having secret deals or use references that only some of the players are able to possibly know would in my book be considered cheating, and not at all being strategic or "playing to win".

To be fair, I think the rulebook could have had a specific rule stating that all players should have a reasonable chance of understanding the hint. No "What we had for dinner yesterday" when only my girlfriend could know what that was. But again, to me and everyone I have played with, this goes without saying.

Given that the rules say nothing about that, how does it go without saying that it is "cheating" to say something "that only some of the players are able to possibly know" (and how do you even define that? How can you know in general whether I know something? Does everyone know "To be or not to be" is from Shakespeare? Does everyone know from which specific play of Shakespeare?)


Maybe more "poor sportsmanship" would be a better term than "cheating".
Say you played a 4-player area control game, and the other 3 players decided to just gang up on you and go easy on each other, putting you more and more behind. That would be no different in my book than playing Dixit with a bunch of 20somethings who use video games for all their clues (of course none of which I would know). "No different" meaning it would take a lot to convince me to play *any* game with them again in the future devil
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russ wrote:
Given that the rules say nothing about that, how does it go without saying that it is "cheating" to say something "that only some of the players are able to possibly know" (and how do you even define that? How can you know in general whether I know something? Does everyone know "To be or not to be" is from Shakespeare? Does everyone know from which specific play of Shakespeare?)


When I talked about cheating I meant stuff like using obvious references to previous games that not all players were part of, as the OP mentioned as an example. Other examples could be references like saying "my sister's pet" to a group when only one person present have any idea who my sister is. As I wrote above, I think the rules would be better if they specifically said giving hints like this should not be allowed, but it still seems pretty clear to me that this is not how the game is supposed to be played and therefore just as wrong as looking at someones hand while they are at the bathroom. If "cheating" is too strong a word, I would still consider it unfair and wrong, at least.

Your Shakespeare example I don't see any problem with, but of course it would depend who you played with. Perhaps it would be wrong with a small child present?

Anyways, in my experience, hints in the "gray zone" work themselves out as players protest if they feel someone was giving unfair hints. If the majority thinks it should be allowed, it is. It is a light-hearted party-game after all, and we have not had any problems with this.
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JohnnyDollar wrote:
Maybe more "poor sportsmanship" would be a better term than "cheating".
Say you played a 4-player area control game, and the other 3 players decided to just gang up on you and go easy on each other, putting you more and more behind. That would be no different in my book than playing Dixit with a bunch of 20somethings who use video games for all their clues (of course none of which I would know). "No different" meaning it would take a lot to convince me to play *any* game with them again in the future devil

I actually do have some 20-something children who give video game clues, and my wife and I counter with movies and TV shows from the 50s and 60s. Nobody worries about it, and we have a great time. Sometimes we surprise one another with what we know.

For us at least, this isn't a game to be taken all that seriously, it's just a context for laughing and having fun together.
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I don't understand the hype behind this game. I love the pictures. I could arrange them all on a poster and hang it on the wall. The problem with the game doesn't lie in the art, but the game itself. Everything you mentioned I agree with, but that isn't the problem for me. I think the problem with this game, much like Apples to Apples, is the LIMIT of creativity. This game disallows someone from being as creative as they want to be. You are forced to create some phrase that must relate to your picture but not overtly so. How is this at all interesting? I actually like party games, and I was excited to try this one. Unfortunately the hampering of the creativity and the "game" itself made me never want to play it again. Here are some games where I think creativity is better cultivated, although the "game" still might not be up to par:

Loaded Questions
Once Upon a Time
Eat Poop You Cat
Say Anything

At least dixit is really relaxing and a pleasure to look at. Apples to Apples might be the worst thing (I hesitate to call it a game) that I have ever played.
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Abhoth_ wrote:

Anyways, in my experience, hints in the "gray zone" work themselves out as players protest if they feel someone was giving unfair hints. If the majority thinks it should be allowed, it is. It is a light-hearted party-game after all, and we have not had any problems with this.


In our games we simply had to add a few additional rules, if only because there are a few members of the group who are pretty intent on "breaking the system", no matter how much we indirectly or directly explain them that they are diminishing the experience for other folks. Our current "addendums" are:

1) No repeated clues
2) No foreign language or codes
3) All players must have at least a slight chance of getting the clue (so no clues relating to personal experience like "the movie we watched yesterday")

Unfortunately we cannot ban "generic" clues - since it opens another can of worms - so we still have a guy who merrily uses clues such as "red" or "high" or "child". But even though it's not as fun to play his turn as a storyteller, at least there's some fun to be had in trying to BS the BSer (such as everyone silently agreeing to play the card completely opposite of what he says, so his card is obvious).

In any case, I still mostly enjoy Dixit outside of my gaming group, or at least without the "problematic" people present.

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Miguel (working on TENNISmind...)
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baba44713 wrote:
In any case, I still mostly enjoy Dixit outside of my gaming group, or at least without the "problematic" people present.

I see what you mean. Indeed I have played Dixit more than 50 times already and with many different groups, and it has always been a hit. I always say that all players must have at least a slight chance of getting the clue, even if it is not in the rules.

Only once I met one of your "problematic" players: he said he didn't want to play but then he said "OK", and he always used the clue "unbelievable" and gave one random card. He didn't win but he got some points and was proud of himself. Hopefully I will not have the chance to play Dixit with him again.

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This is by far the best review of Dixit I have read yet! Spot on.
 
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baba44713 wrote:
...can a bottomless ship of the heart sail through the endless desert of thoughts?


When crewed by robot pirates from the future arrrh
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