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Subject: Points Track rss

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Carter
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Given Eclipse's excellent production tracking mechanic, I wonder why the same mechanic was not also applied to point tracking. For example, there could be a separate board, with a point track for each player, filled with cubes. Then, as players colonize tiles, they deploy points cubes in accordance with that tile value. This way, one could easily see all the point totals relative to each other, and adjust tactics accordingly.
 
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Jeff A
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The problem with that is that you could only track the known variables, and while that could be helpful it is also pretty easy to tell who is winning most of the time by looking at how much of their color is out there.

Keep in mind, any player could have up to 16 points in reputation tiles at any time, could easily abandon regions in the middle of their empire only to claim them at the last turn etc.

What I am trying to say is that a points track may be a good idea but it isn't accurate by any means. You are better served by observing the game itself, what other people are doing, etc and changing your strategy in that way.

Eclipse is more about the unseen than the easily tracked.
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Carter
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Kingsix wrote:
The problem with that is that you could only track the known variables, and while that could be helpful it is also pretty easy to tell who is winning most of the time by looking at how much of their color is out there.

Keep in mind, any player could have up to 16 points in reputation tiles at any time, could easily abandon regions in the middle of their empire only to claim them at the last turn etc.

What I am trying to say is that a points track may be a good idea but it isn't accurate by any means. You are better served by observing the game itself, what other people are doing, etc and changing your strategy in that way.

Eclipse is more about the unseen than the easily tracked.


True, though you would presumably always put one cube on the hidden points chits. And I understand the comment about the fluidity of point score, and big swing from hidden points, however I still think it would be useful to have a cube track so that people can quantify what is known. You can make the same argument about the resource tracks, since those can be fluid as well (in either direction), yet it is helpful to see them at a glance in order to understand where you stand relative to other player's production engine.
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Scott DeMers
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That would be a pain to update after each player's phase. I would not want to do it.
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Carter
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sdmers wrote:
That would be a pain to update after each player's phase. I would not want to do it.


But my point is that it would be tracked similar to the other resources, where you just take cubes off it, and place them on tiles etc. worth points. Then, your point total at any time (less hidden points) would be visible as from the last cube removed (same as the resources).
 
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Russell Bryan
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pzkrakz wrote:
But my point is that it would be tracked similar to the other resources, where you just take cubes off it, and place them on tiles etc. worth points. Then, your point total at any time (less hidden points) would be visible as from the last cube removed (same as the resources).

One would need to add 1-4 VP spaces to each sector tile, 3 VP spaces to each monolith tile, 2 VP spaces to each discovery tile, and a VP space to each ambassador tile. I expect additional VP spaces would be added to the technology tracks on each player board and, finally, 2 off-color (maybe some sort of putrid-looking green) cubes would be transferred from the traitor card TO your player board after breaking an alliance. Finally, at the end of the game, cubes could be transferred from the points track to 1-4 spaces on each reputation tile, giving everyone their final score.

I agree that this sounds tempting, since endgame scoring is the one place where the elegance of the design is absent, but I can't help but think that it adds a great deal of clutter to what can already sometimes appear to be a cluttered playing area. Adding a fourth cube type that must be transferred from board to hex and back might be confusing and error-prone... and in some cases might not leave a lot of room for ships! Not to mention that the VP track itself would have to hold at least 60 cubes to cover high-scoring games.

I don't wholly dislike the idea, but it seems to me the game already gives us enough pieces to juggle. It's probably more trouble than it's worth.
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Chad Geister
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Not a bad idea in theory, but this is a lot of work. Yeah, you can move cubes from a track to the board, but combat can swing that a lot (hexes are always changing hands in our games) and pulling off 3 cubes and putting three more on in addition to what is already happening seems like a lot. Additionally, loading up another 70 cubes per player color in the box just to track VP seems like overkill.

As an alternative, either make a VP track with a single counter that everyone manages, or just add an additional VP tracker chit to the storage track around the player board, making the player responsible for that bit of upkeep after each action. I'd leave off the reputation track entirely, and double check the math at the end of the game, in case something was missed, but it ought to help, if you are looking for more transparency to the game.

On a more personal note, after several plays, with aliens, you'll get a feel for how many points their empires are actually worth by just looking at hexes and player boards without breaking out calculators. And the big issue there is actually planta and descendants, with their special VP rules.
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James 3
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we made a matrix of columns to add up score at the end, like the 7 wonders system, (reputation, hexes/monoliths, discovery, science, etc) and it made it interesting to see where the points came from to help understand the game more. I suppose a track to make all the visible vp easy to calculate could give a virtual "leader", but control of territory now and end game is highly dependant on fleet and layout, not reflected by the running total, and the variability of the reputation tiles value endgame, the predictablity of future vp via monoliths or tech etc...

basically, a running vp total is interesting, but doesnt really show who is winning at all. You can add it up, and announce the result to the table if you think it important politically (good job, rainman), but fleet and galaxy positioning and future potential make as much or more difference to what you should do most of the game, so tracking it in the open to the point isn't that useful until round 9. should be tracked in a digital implementation i guess, but possibly distracting/irrelevant/misleading for most of game.

most of the science vp and monolith vp come in final rounds, and the hex control can change so much. most midgame points are hidden (and the most random part of game to me, not reliably rewarding combat dominant strategies in relation to losers in combat)
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Escalofrios Escalofrios
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The problem with making a visual score may be the Kingmaker, other players to attack the player with more score and giving the game to another player.

Sorry for my english
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Carter
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Coletrain wrote:

The problem with making a visual score may be the Kingmaker, other players to attack the player with more score and giving the game to another player.

Sorry for my english


True, one may be more inclined to attack a points leader (which is why I suggested knowing the point totals in real time would be useful). That said, if you are playing to win, then there is no point in kingmaking. Rather, I think it's just a symptom of a certain type of groupthink.
 
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Aaron Bevan
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Problem 1 - A points track would be a pain to update as the game is very fluid.

Problem 2 - Hidden victory points means its not an accurate portrayal of what its claiming to track.

Problem 3 - There is more going on in the game than straight up points and I don't think a points track will help you make decisions. Having an understanding of the board is much more important which includes knowing where priority targets are for gaining points.

I guess I fail to see where the advantage of a points track would benefit the game as the game already does a good job tracking points.
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