CWattie
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I've struggled with interpretation of orders since getting SMG: DoD and have come to the conclusion I must just be dense. I'm trying to understand exactly when play stops and victory points get calulated to determine a winner? Can you help me understand this?

Orders Type:

Patrol (Orders #52,#53,#54,#55)
Enter the map using the Area "A,B,Z,Y" and exit the map from Area "y,Z,B,C" - Success gains 18-20 VP - two of the orders give bonus for prisoners taken.

These order types seem pretty straight forward to me. I think you just enter the map at the instructed area and try to get as many of your men off the map at the instructed area. Once that is achieved, all play stops and VP are calculated.

Recon (Orders #56)
Enter from "C" and move to all Landmarks. After searching the Landmarks exit via "C" - Success gains 12 VP - Bonus for surviving soldiers.

This order seems straight forward to me. You enter at area C, lead the squad to each Landmark and then exit the map via area C with as many soldiers as possible. Once that is achieved, all play stops and VP are calculated.

Hold (Orders #57,#58)
Deploy up to 6 soldiers in Landmark (1,2). Other soldiers enter turn 3 at an unused Entry Area. - Success gains 8 VP. - Bonus for Prisoners taken.

This sounds pretty straight forward but some clarification would be helpful. Given DoD base set only contains 4 soldiers I assume you have a few options. You could deploy all 4 to the landmark and defend until the death OR you can split your 4 soldiers up deploying 1-3 soldiers on the landmark and then deploy 1-3 soldiers on turn 3 at an unused area again fighting to the death. My assumption here, though it isn't stated, is that you must kill or take all enemy soldiers prisoner. Once this is achieved, all play stops and VP are calculated. Though if you do kill all enemy soldiers then it is an instant victory per the rules on page 16 and the VP calculation is not needed.

Skirmish (Orders #59,#60,#61)
#59
On turn 2 enter at any unused Entry Area. Kill or Capture all enemy soldiers encountered. - Success gains 23 VP.

This one is really straight forward. Enter on the specified turn in any unused area then proceed to seek and destroy the enemy. As soon as all enemy are either killed or have been taken prisoner, all play stops and VP are calculated. Though if you do kill all enemy soldiers then it is an instant victory per the rules on page 16 and the VP calculation is not needed.

#60 & #61
On turn 2 enter any unused Entry Area. Kill over half of the enemy soldiers encountered. - Success gains 13 VP. - Bonus for prisoners taken.

Ok this one needs clarification for me. On the surface it is straight forward. Enter on turn 2 at an unused area then proceed to seek and destroy the enemy. What is confusing to me is the text "kill over half of the enemy soldiers encountered". Assuming the base DoD game with 4 soldiers I interpret these orders to mean that the instant I kill a 3rd soldier, all play stops and VP are calculated. This raises another question in my mind. When you take a prisoner, do you count the soldiers VP points AND the prisoner taken VP? i.e. Soldier Private X is worth 3 VP and gets taken prisoner (bonus of 7 VP). Does the enemy get to count his soldier VP AND the bonus VP of 7 for a total of 10 VP?

Attack (Orders #62,#63,#64)
Capture over half the Landmarks in play. - Success gains 7 VP per Captured Landmark - Some orders contain a bonus for soldiers surviving.

This is also one I need clarification on as I find it the most confusing and open to various interpretations. Assuming the base DoD game the max number of Landmarks will be 2. The orders text clearly states you must capture OVER half the Landmarks. This to me means you must capture both. The meaning of Capture has been discussed in other threads but it seems the general opinion is it means that at least one soldier from a single nationality is inside the Landmark tile. As soon as an enemy enters that same Landmark tile it becomes contested. I feel there are several different interpretations possible.

1. The moment one side gets a single soldier by themselves in each landmark, all play stops and VP are calculated. Also, if one squad can get this done before the enemy even enters the map it doesn't matter. Play still stops. VP calc would be = VP for each landmark + VP for any enemy killed + VP for any surviving soldiers.

2. Any time a soldier from either side enters an unoccupied landmark tile he earns 7 VP for his side. Play continues until all enemy soldiers are either killed or taken prisoner. Once the last enemy soldier is killed or captured, all play stops and VP are calculated. The victory rules on page 16 state "If all the soldiers on one side are eliminated, the other side wins an instant victory". Are prisoners consider "eliminated". If not, I could see a scenario with this interpretation where one side has 2 soldiers killed, 2 alive but prisoner, and still win because they touched the landmarks uncontested more times than the other side.

3. As long as the enemy has an active, non-prisoner, soldier the landmarks are considered contested and play continues until that soldier is killed or taken prisoner. As soon as that enemy soldier is killed or taken prisoner, all play stops and VP are calculated. If the winning side does not happen to have a soldier occupying both landmark tiles at that time they fail to achieve their orders but still win due to instant victory conditions.

NOTE: In each of the orders sections above, when I say all play stops I mean it literally. Play stops immediately regardless of whether either side still has unresolved Action Cards remaining. This is an assumption of course. I've often wondered if this is correct. The other possibility I thought of was if a side met their orders during the first round of Action Cards within a given turn, does play continue until all remaining Action Cards still active for that turn are resolved thus allowing the opposing side one last chance to turn the tide in their favor. If they fail to do so with their remaining Action Cards THEN all play stops at the end of that turn and VP are calculated.

Thanks for your help.
 
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Brian
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I might be corrected here, but I think play only stops once the story deck is depleted or the enemy is completely killed and/or captured, and only then are VP calculated and applied for Hold Orders.

Patrol and Recon Order VPs are awarded immediately, as are those from the random events during play, but I don't believe that this causes the game to end.

If there are only two landmarks in play then the Attack Order is all or nothing, either both will score the VPs or zero VPs are scored if less than half are only one is occupied at the games conclusion.

Skirmish Orders are self explanatory and must cause the game to end according to normal auto victory rules.
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One thing to keep in mind is that Day of Days was a product developed lat in the game cycle (as far as I can tell from designer posts) as a way to offer a lower price point for entry. Many of the functions and concepts in the game really do not shine until you add more map tiles and/or soldiers. Also the Road to Carentan Scenario book has some difinitions of the terms on the various Order Cards which would help you out. Having said that here are my comments on your post.

1. Play does not stop until you cannot fill all three phases from the story deck.
2. The only exception to number 1 is if you kill or capture all enemy soldiers then you score an instant victory.
3. You calculate total Victory Points (VPs) at the end of the game.
4. VPs for Events, Patrol Orders and Recon Orders are scored when the conditions on the card are satisfied.
5. All other Order cards are checked at the end of the game to determine VPs.
6. here are the definitions of the terms on Order Cards from Road to Carentan>

Hold: Be in soole possession of a Landmark tile at game end.

Capture: Have been in sole possession of a landmark tile for a complete term.

Exit: If permitted by an Order or if an event demands it, use a move action to exit the map with 1 or more soldiers.

Search: One soldier must enter a Landmark and move into Cover. If there is no cover entering the Landmark is enough to satisfy the Search.


In my mind the only area we need clarification on is the Capture situation, Can one side "re-capture" a Landmark that was previously captured by their opponent. I assume yes but will post in the consolidated rules thread.
 
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Quote:
Capture: Have been in sole possession of a landmark tile for a complete term.


So if they are "Attack" orders targeting the Landmarks then when does play stop? As soon as one side has sole possession of both landmarks for a complete turn...regardless of whether the enemy side still has soldiers alive and active?
 
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CWattie wrote:
Quote:
Capture: Have been in sole possession of a landmark tile for a complete term.


So if the they are "Attack" orders targeting the Landmarks then when does play stop? As soon as one side has sole possession of both landmarks for a complete turn...regardless of whether the enemy side still has soldiers alive and active?


That appears to be the case based on Jerry's answer over in the consolidated rules FAQ thread. I am not completely comfortable with that answer. Going to read it again and then come back here and follow up post.
 
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Okay, it seems that the Attack Order is satisfied at the moment when you gain control of the last necessary Landmark. It also appears that once you capture a landmark, you have "checked that box" and it is irrelevant what subsequently happens in that Landmark. I am going to start a new thread about the concern this raises based on my recent play of Hall of Heroes Road to Carentan Scenario 17.
 
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Quote:
I might be corrected here, but I think play only stops once the story deck is depleted or the enemy is completely killed and/or captured,



Just talked with Jeff on the phone.

That is your basic ground rule for all scenarios, unless the description says otherwise.

Scouting or recon can be scored by passing through. Most everything else involves hanging on and counting points when the deck runs out (or the other side runs out of men).

So another thread concerned because one side was closer to landmarks than the other does not have to worry, at least in quite the same way. They may get to it first, but you have a chance to take it away from them.

 
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This is fine but it is yet another example of simple wording choices in either the rules or the cards leading to confusion. Honestly, the fact that we are having a question/debate on basic concepts at this point post release concerns me. Especially when more complex concepts appear to be coming down the road in the form of snipers, platoons, promotions, etc. We continue to be told that the next great thing is coming soon so hold on, which is great, but honestly I'd be just as happy to see a great refined set of base rules and scenarios which showed this game in the proper light it deserves. I've only been a part of the SMG world for a little less than two months, not nearly as long as some others, but I've bought in in a big way and hope these things get sorted sooner rather than later.

I don't want this to come across as me being dissatisfied with the game or LBG. I support the effort 100% and will continue to do so as long as I feel progress is being made on these issues. Though, having spent almost $400 on Day of Days, Road to Carentan, 2 leaders, and 2 squad bundles already and to still be playing with the 1.53 rules after almost 2 months is frustrating and worrying.
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CWattie wrote:
honestly I'd be just as happy to see a great refined set of base rules
I think that's what they are concentrating on now...
 
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Rules 1.72 are finished and with the printer.
I know Jeff plans on mailing hard copies but I'll speak with him about a download too.

Also in progress is a player aid card that should help folks get started more quickly. I would like to review the scenario descriptions as well. I think fewer options would be a good thing, especially in the first games.
 
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Jerry Tresman
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kduke wrote:
Rules 1.72 are finished and with the printer.
I know Jeff plans on mailing hard copies but I'll speak with him about a download too.

Also in progress is a player aid card that should help folks get started more quickly. I would like to review the scenario descriptions as well. I think fewer options would be a good thing, especially in the first games.


I will be updating the Q and A thread to point to the Page references in the new rules 1.72.

I will then start a new thread along the same lines for the New rules.
IMO they are complete . They are not codified and the style is still the same which is good.

They are consistant accurate and comprehensive , there may be one piece of errata required I will give some Geek Gold if you spot it, but not for typos or spelling mistakes.
 
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Okay, just to make sure we are all on the same page. Here are each of the orders and when they should be scored. Kevin or Jeff please let me know if I got this wrong.

Attack: Scored at the end of the game due to exhaustion of the Story Deck. Determine success by checking to see how many Landmarks have been captured by the player at game end. Note that Landmarks can be captured at any point int he game and count as captured at the end of game UNLESS the opposing player has captured them by back by fulfilling the same capture conditions as the original player.

Demolition: Scored immediately after the explosives are successfully detonated.

Hold: Scored at the end of the game.

Patrol: Scored at the moment that the player successfully exits one or more of his soldiers from the designated exit point.

Recon: Scored at the moment that the player successfully exits one or more of his soldiers from the designated exit point.

Registered Fire: Scored at the moment that the artillery falls and the radio operator is still alive.

Skirmish: Scored at the end of the game.

 
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Brian
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CWattie wrote:
This is fine but it is yet another example of simple wording choices in either the rules or the cards leading to confusion. Honestly, the fact that we are having a question/debate on basic concepts at this point post release concerns me. Especially when more complex concepts appear to be coming down the road in the form of snipers, platoons, promotions, etc. We continue to be told that the next great thing is coming soon so hold on, which is great, but honestly I'd be just as happy to see a great refined set of base rules and scenarios which showed this game in the proper light it deserves. I've only been a part of the SMG world for a little less than two months, not nearly as long as some others, but I've bought in in a big way and hope these things get sorted sooner rather than later.

I don't want this to come across as me being dissatisfied with the game or LBG. I support the effort 100% and will continue to do so as long as I feel progress is being made on these issues. Though, having spent almost $400 on Day of Days, Road to Carentan, 2 leaders, and 2 squad bundles already and to still be playing with the 1.53 rules after almost 2 months is frustrating and worrying.
This is perfectly stated with how I feel. I worry about posting my concerns so frequently and coming across as being "one of THOSE guys" who always seem unsatisfied. I am NOT unsatisfied, but I AM frustrated. There is a difference.

I absolutely do not want to see any new ideas, vehicles, etc. rushed into publication before they are properly play tested. I am also discouraged by the growing feeling that I am still struggling with previously published material inadequately tested. Then I feel guilty when I "rant post" out of frustration, but I'm simply trying to address the concerns I've discovered so other people have an easier time later on down the road and I am convinced that without my ranting, a lot of clarifications and other helpful tools like the FAQ Jerry eventually established might not have ever been committed to in the first place. I posted early requesting a FAQ for this game because it really needed it.

I do not think it is right that after less than twenty plays I can discover such obvious problems with the language and basic, basic functions of the game and then need to risk being thought of as some kind of trouble making pariah here because I don't accept the level of confusion inherent with the system as it is and have had the guts to actually say something.

LBG, you have been lauded for listening to us, please do not release any new material at all until it has been sent out to testers that have no affiliation with Jeff or anyone at LBG. The playtesting has to be undertaken completely blindly by someone who receives the game, opens the box, reads the rules totally on their own and then attempts to play the game without any guidance and then provides you with the only kind of feedback that really matters, the kind that you will never discover for yourselves because you're too close to your creation to see it.

If we can discover all these problems with the language in SMG in such a short time and with so few plays then that in itself should be a huge lesson learned for anything that gets released in the future. Please learn from your mistakes and do not repeat them. No new material or promotions, websites etc. is worth the frustration experienced by those of us still trying to make sense of the basic stuff that should have already been sorted out by more thorough blind testing before the original publication was ever sent out.

Everyone who agrees with this is probably nodding silently right now, content to allow me to be the fall guy again. Well, fine, but if you are concerned about the pace of new releases while the original problems have still persisted, then please thumb this post while retaining your anonymity and send the message to LBG that clarity in their future releases and expansions must be given priority over the temptation for profit first. I for one am still concerned that this message has not been completely understood by the powers that be. Coming out with so many expansions so soon seems impossible unless they have not been thoroughly blind tested.
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Brian

I think it is important that we distinguish between two separate issues.

1. Whether the fundamental design and systems are sound and well tested.

2. Whether the developers have written a rule set that fully and clearly communicate how the game systems function together.

So far I have no concerns about issue 1. It seems clear to me that Jeff has developed this system over a long time and a great number of plays. Any time I have had an issue understanding some part of the game, once I have gotten clarification I have never had concerns about the fundamental design or systems.

Clearly issue 2 has been the problem since release. It appears to me that this is a product of the game being developed and nurtured by Jeff over many face to face sessions. Sometimes it is hard for a person with intimate knowledge of a subject to write a thorough and complete account because their assumed knowledge permeates their writing. I also am confident that Jeff's rule writing style is born out of the realm of miniatures gaming which has a tradition of less precise and thorough writing. I think the feedback from BGG is helping LBG tighten the product up.

I am not so concerned about the "new material" being released because I suspect it is not new at all but rather was held back from the initial release due to price and production limitations.

Finally, keep on posting. It is abundantly clear that your motivation is to help a great game get better and find broader success. Hard to imagine LBG would resent that.
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rexgator wrote:
CWattie wrote:
Quote:
Capture: Have been in sole possession of a landmark tile for a complete term.


So if the they are "Attack" orders targeting the Landmarks then when does play stop? As soon as one side has sole possession of both landmarks for a complete turn...regardless of whether the enemy side still has soldiers alive and active?


That appears to be the case based on Jerry's answer over in the consolidated rules FAQ thread. I am not completely comfortable with that answer. Going to read it again and then come back here and follow up post.


I have been working on the Quick Reference Guide and Quick Start Play Guide so I have been absent from the boards... I should have answered this already.

Play ends with the draw of the final Phase Card from the Story Deck or when all opposing Soldiers are dead or have exited the Map.

 
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rexgator wrote:
Okay, just to make sure we are all on the same page. Here are each of the orders and when they should be scored. Kevin or Jeff please let me know if I got this wrong.

Attack: Scored at the end of the game due to exhaustion of the Story Deck. Determine success by checking to see how many Landmarks have been captured by the player at game end. Note that Landmarks can be captured at any point int he game and count as captured at the end of game UNLESS the opposing player has captured them by back by fulfilling the same capture conditions as the original player.


Actually all players with Attack Orders can score them if they are completed. They must enter the Landmarks and control them for 1 full turn. Once they have achieved that the points are awarded. That does not stop play. There are a lot of source of VP... The Unspent VP differential is a bonus, the Soldiers Killed and Captured and the fulfillment of Orders.

Obeying Orders and accomplishing assignments are scored because you report success to the CO - hence there must be a survivor.

rexgator wrote:

Demolition: Scored immediately after the explosives are successfully detonated.

Hold: Scored at the end of the game.

Patrol: Scored at the moment that the player successfully exits one or more of his soldiers from the designated exit point.

Recon: Scored at the moment that the player successfully exits one or more of his soldiers from the designated exit point.

Registered Fire: Scored at the moment that the artillery falls and the radio operator is still alive.

Skirmish: Scored at the end of the game.



The Rest are fine. Except for Skirmish... I have recently changed how that is scored because I simply did not like the way it plays on a big map. So as of this rules release 1.72 the term Encounter means "...within 2 Squares and Spotted." In Day of Days that is usually not a problem.

 
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I have stopped the release of all follow on products to address the issues with written rules. My background is physics and engineering so I am somewhat lacking at writing rules. I hope the 1.72 rules release is a decided improvement. I asked people to help me see what I was failing to explain, and I have worked for weeks to fix the issues with the help of many of the fans.

The SMG design is, in my opinion, quite sound. And I hope with the 1.72 rules rewrite I have managed to explain the game adequately. For all the early adopters the long term value of entering early will be rewarded. Now I can complete the First Sergeants promotions and awards next week. They have been hanging - waiting on me to complete the rules rewrite. And I will follow that up quickly with the online rostering and promotions systems.

When I understood the need to clarify and refine the rules I stopped everything to do just that. Now I can get back on course and get the pending releases ready for a very busy new year.

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Very important distinction, Rex. Thanks. The system is perfectly fine, of course.

I really love this game, but SMG has been a rather painful and frustrating adjustment for my hex and counter die hard background.

Rules writing is a completely different skill set. Rare is the individual that possesses equal ability in both design and writing skill, mostly exclusive right brain/left brain activities I guess.

Please forgive me if I've come across as too harsh, Jeff. It is virtually impossible for someone who is intimate with every facet of their game to distance themselves from it adequately enough to get any kind of absolute objectivity with regard to composing rules language. Nothing will ever be perfect, and perhaps unfairly based on the high cost of entry into the system, I have developed correspondingly higher expectations. I should remember that writing rules is arguably easily the most difficult aspect of any game design for anyone who has ever published anything.

Your efforts are in fact much appreciated and I'm looking forward to the new rules, but I have sidelined my cash and shelved SMG until I get through them. There is going to be some damage control taking place once I resume teaching the game again, but I am confident that the memory of endless rules debating will eventually fade to be replaced instead by even more memorable game experiences. Thanks for being steadfast and thick skinned.
 
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Jeff Billings wrote:
rexgator wrote:
Okay, just to make sure we are all on the same page. Here are each of the orders and when they should be scored. Kevin or Jeff please let me know if I got this wrong.

Attack: Scored at the end of the game due to exhaustion of the Story Deck. Determine success by checking to see how many Landmarks have been captured by the player at game end. Note that Landmarks can be captured at any point int he game and count as captured at the end of game UNLESS the opposing player has captured them by back by fulfilling the same capture conditions as the original player.


Actually all players with Attack Orders can score them if they are completed. They must enter the Landmarks and control them for 1 full turn. Once they have achieved that the points are awarded. That does not stop play. There are a lot of source of VP... The Unspent VP differential is a bonus, the Soldiers Killed and Captured and the fulfillment of Orders.

Obeying Orders and accomplishing assignments are scored because you report success to the CO - hence there must be a survivor.



Jeff

Thanks for the clarification here but I am concerned that this ruling can create some negative play experiences. I posted a separate thread about scenario 17 where the Americans were able to position there soldiers on turn one for a turn two fulfillment of Attack. Due to the Entry Area of my German Order I had no chance to contest the spaces. Kevin's response upthread on this post suggested you were ruling differently and that in a situation like this the opposing player would be able to capture the spaces back later in the game in order to deny the points at the end of the game.
I have not played through that many other of the Scenarios in Road to Carentan so maybe that one is a fluke and I need not worry about this.

there is a fix in scenario 17 by using a different german patrol order so maybe that is the answer.
 
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Jerry Tresman
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I think this is a conflict between capture and hold orders. As I posted recently the principle that no plan survives first contact may upset the balance.

In DoD I have often witnessed a complete game reversal due to a flank attack from an undefended entry area.

BTW. I see capture an area as take control of long enough to destroy its use to the enemy for the timescale of the game. Destroy a communications tower, gun placement, code books, observation post... by not spelling it out in detail it doesn't lock the Order to one situation. Signalling its capture by flare ,radio , runner to HQ is a one off event. They act on this and you will probably never know why or what the repercussion is, it may be a feint it may be critical.

It is highly likely to be frustrating,the not knowing , but soldiers have to move on to secondary or primary objectives or just survive. IMO SMG captures this aspect.

Read soldiers accounts and films they are riddled with these frustrations.

Recently I researched my Uncles war :- Dunkirk , Africa, Normandy , Belgium. Wounded at Dunkirk (a Stuka Canon shell through his right side,recovers by 41) and in Normandy (fought on, though the jeep passenger was killed), he visited his grave with his wife , my Aunt, after the war. She recently sent me his medals, pay book and papers, he died young in the 70s from lingering effects of the early wounds, diabetes y

He was an Engineer initially asigned to Field Artillery in BEP ending up organising air cover at Dunkirk. As a sergeant assigned to an Anti Tank unit in Africa and then back to England, Tenby (not his base , I recall at a reunion this being discussed and joked about and how hush hush it was, I asked something and they all clammed up and then suddenly laughed, strange how keeping things quiet still stuck 20 years later.) promoted to a Staff Sergeant cross assigned / attached to the US 2nd Infantry Division in March 1944. We can't be certain but probably due to being an Engineer, knowledge of Normandy and or equipment. He didn't talk about his war but as a child I went with him to, two local reunions in the early 60's, my Aunt said the only real time he talked to her about the war, was on the Normandy visit , they met after the War.


His pay book shows he was wounded it actually notes replaced due to loss during action in June 1944, with records up to early 1945 being copied in from central records and individual entries with different signatures continuing throughout 1945. It shows medical records and where injuries took place. He returns to England within days of the 2nd being rotated for a rest in March 1945 at Remagen bridge effectively guarding it. 9 days leave promotion / confirmation to Colour Sergeant only RSM higher and I think that is classed as a Warrant Officer. Then back overseas until September 1945, still researching that last bit.


The point of all this is, that during my research I read hundreds of soldiers accounts on numerous websites and in books , from the BEP in France to the 2nd in Normandy and Belgium and most of these accounts, when recalling actions focus on small engagements, interestingly where some one else was a hero in a big or small way and almost always a frustration over capturing ground, orders or what the bigger picture was.

It may not help you with play balance issues but for me it works even when some think it falls down. Yes its not fair but it did often happen that way.
It is one of the few games I have played where the game story overshadowed the win. I can recall a long SMG session we played 3 or 4 DoD 2 times each from morning to night and these issues cropped up for both of us but it did not spoil the games as there was always some new twist.

If every game had this issue then it does need to addressed , maybe the VP values are to high or to low , only time will tell. Scoring each one once seems to fit in.
 
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R M Chair General wrote:
...Thanks for being steadfast and thick skinned.

I appreciate your expectation of a premium game for the price. So demanding the best from Lost Battalion Games is our expectation also. That carries forward to us printing the new rules and the quick start guide and quick reference guide and sending them to the game owners, free of charge.

We have refrained from doing the easy thing and talking about what is coming and instead stopped to take the feedback and address it, and do our best to fix it.

Thanks for the passion for SMG, we share it with you.
 
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Jeff Billings
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rexgator wrote:

Thanks for the clarification here but I am concerned that this ruling can create some negative play experiences. I posted a separate thread about scenario 17 where the Americans were able to position there soldiers on turn one for a turn two fulfillment of Attack. Due to the Entry Area of my German Order I had no chance to contest the spaces. Kevin's response upthread on this post suggested you were ruling differently and that in a situation like this the opposing player would be able to capture the spaces back later in the game in order to deny the points at the end of the game.
I have not played through that many other of the Scenarios in Road to Carentan so maybe that one is a fluke and I need not worry about this.

there is a fix in scenario 17 by using a different german patrol order so maybe that is the answer.


We will produce aspects of some scenarios that are modestly unbalanced. Why? When we run the campaign system and one player is on a roll. We need scenarios that are harder to win. That facility in the scenarios the ability to challenge a player leading the campaign.

Even so, the number of possible orders interactions and the force choices will provide a host of opportunities to win. Even if you lose a scenario and preserve the force for another battle that may win you the campaigns. I hope this helps explain the scenario design philosophy.
 
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CWattie
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Quote:
I have stopped the release of all follow on products to address the issues with written rules. My background is physics and engineering so I am somewhat lacking at writing rules. I hope the 1.72 rules release is a decided improvement. I asked people to help me see what I was failing to explain, and I have worked for weeks to fix the issues with the help of many of the fans.




Jeff

This is good news indeed. My hope is those who helped in the rules effort represent a good cross-section of the player base so the rules were reviewed from multiple perspectives. New player, old timer, etc.

As I've stated many time now, I support this game and LBG 100%. I appreciate and applaud your willingness to listen to the community and deal with these issues. I also appreciate that you see our critical opinions for what they are and understand what motivates them. Our belief in this game and our desire to see it become a success.

Thanks
 
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Rex Gator
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Okay Jeff I hear where you are coming from. i just want to clear up the last couple questions i have about Attack Orders.

1. The player who draws the attack order does not have to capture all the necessary landmarks on the same turn correct? (In other words, you could capture L2 on turn 2, L1 on turn 4 and finally L3 on turn 6 and that should satisfy the condition)

2. Does the player holding the Attack Order have to reveal and score the order at the moment he reaches the condition that satisfies the order? (Using my example above would he be required to reveal and score at the end of turn 6?) I am basically trying to figure out if the player with the Attack Order has the option to go for capturing more Landmarks than necessary in order to earn more points.

3. Assuming that the answer to number 2 is NO then can the player holding the Attack Order wait until the end of the scenario and reveal and score at that time? Revealing during game does communicate a degree of information to your opponent about your objectives that seems unrealistic so it would be kind of cool that it be an end game reveal.
 
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Greg
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Jeff Billings wrote:
rexgator wrote:
Okay, just to make sure we are all on the same page. Here are each of the orders and when they should be scored. Kevin or Jeff please let me know if I got this wrong.

Attack: Scored at the end of the game due to exhaustion of the Story Deck. Determine success by checking to see how many Landmarks have been captured by the player at game end. Note that Landmarks can be captured at any point int he game and count as captured at the end of game UNLESS the opposing player has captured them by back by fulfilling the same capture conditions as the original player.


Actually all players with Attack Orders can score them if they are completed. They must enter the Landmarks and control them for 1 full turn. Once they have achieved that the points are awarded. That does not stop play. There are a lot of source of VP... The Unspent VP differential is a bonus, the Soldiers Killed and Captured and the fulfillment of Orders.

Obeying Orders and accomplishing assignments are scored because you report success to the CO - hence there must be a survivor.

rexgator wrote:

Demolition: Scored immediately after the explosives are successfully detonated.

Hold: Scored at the end of the game.

Patrol: Scored at the moment that the player successfully exits one or more of his soldiers from the designated exit point.

Recon: Scored at the moment that the player successfully exits one or more of his soldiers from the designated exit point.

Registered Fire: Scored at the moment that the artillery falls and the radio operator is still alive.

Skirmish: Scored at the end of the game.



The Rest are fine. Except for Skirmish... I have recently changed how that is scored because I simply did not like the way it plays on a big map. So as of this rules release 1.72 the term Encounter means "...within 2 Squares and Spotted." In Day of Days that is usually not a problem.



I want to double check for sure the VP scoring for HOLD cards. Now I understand the definition of Hold as defined in the RTC scenario book. However, the other Orders cards titles of Attack, Skirmish, Recon, Patrol etc. aren't catch words that are defined for the success of the orders.

For Attack, "Capture" is the keyword in the orders text and is defined in RTC.

For Recon, "Searching" is the keyword in the orders text and is defined in RTC.

For Skirmish, "encountered" is a keyword in orders text and is defined on the Quick Start Guide.

Then we get to Hold orders. Hold, while defined in RTC, is not mentioned in the text of the Hold orders, it's a name/type of orders. The text just says to "Deploy up to 6 soldiers in Landmark 1. Other soldiers enter turn 3 at an unused Entry Area. Success gains 8 VP. It also has Bonus VPs for captured enemy.

I just wanted to make sure that the order name/type "Hold" is also the mission of that card as well and thus need to control the Landmark at the end of the game with no enemy. I'm going to roll with that as I believe that is the intention of the designer. I think that if the text of the orders read, "Deploy up to 6 soldiers in Landmark 1 and hold. Other soldiers enter turn 3 at an unused Entry Area. Success gains 8 VP" it would have been consistent with the way the conditions were otherwise spelled out in the text of the different orders and not the name/type of orders.

 
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