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Subject: I'm planning to go to kickstarter with a prototype but not sure about some things. rss

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Donovan D
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It just seems way too good to be true that people are willing to pay decent chunks of cash for fairly insignificant offers but I'm gonna give it a try anyway.

A couple questions I have though before I set a quote.
Is there anything legally obligating the pledgers to pay what they pledged? Do people typically do what they say they will do?

Also, I don't know exactly how much money I'll need to launch my first game mostly because I don't know how much its gonna cost to package my product, how to package it, or where to get this info.

With Artscow and some other companies like that it seems like printing cards for a game release should be realitively simple and inexpensive but I don't know how to get booster packs or at least just nice looking boxes done.

Also, one of my games would be best with custom dice. Is there a cheap way to make custom dice? Like a dice version of Artscow? If not, how do I get ahold of blanks and stickers like the ones I see in a lot of the dice games on here?
I would like to be able to create dice that are different colors on different sides as well as having unique number sequences. Like a 6 sided die with sides that are Blue 1, Blue 2, Red 1, Red 2, Yellow 1, Yellow 2. And others like it.

Any help with any of this would be appreciated.
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Eric Etkin
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Navonod wrote:
It just seems way too good to be true that people are willing to pay decent chunks of cash for fairly insignificant offers but I'm gonna give it a try anyway.

A couple questions I have though before I set a quote.
Is there anything legally obligating the pledgers to pay what they pledged? Do people typically do what they say they will do?

Also, I don't know exactly how much money I'll need to launch my first game mostly because I don't know how much its gonna cost to package my product, how to package it, or where to get this info.

With Artscow and some other companies like that it seems like printing cards for a game release should be realitively simple and inexpensive but I don't know how to get booster packs or at least just nice looking boxes done.

Also, one of my games would be best with custom dice. Is there a cheap way to make custom dice? Like a dice version of Artscow? If not, how do I get ahold of blanks and stickers like the ones I see in a lot of the dice games on here?
I would like to be able to create dice that are different colors on different sides as well as having unique number sequences. Like a 6 sided die with sides that are Blue 1, Blue 2, Red 1, Red 2, Yellow 1, Yellow 2. And others like it.

Any help with any of this would be appreciated.


At the risk of sounding discouraging... you're not remotely ready for KS from the sound of things. To address all your points in brief:

1) Yes. It IS too good to be true. Some stinkers squeak buy, but most are backed because the backers feel they're getting some value (physical, karmatic, or both) for their money.

2) I believe if you reach your goal, pledger's credit accounts are then charged, which is the obligation I think you're looking for.

3) You NEED to know as ACCURATELY as possible all of these costs involved, otherwise you will get very few backers, as they will perceive this as a lack of preparation and commitment on your part. This research will take you quite a bit of time, so be prepared.

4) If you're looking at POD companies like Artcow to make components, you are not ready for KS. For one, a POD is going to charge you WAY more per piece than a traditional printer. How much? How about a minimum of 4-5 times as much for starters. Probably more. If you are considering KS, you should be thinking in terms of 1000s of units. Possibly as few as 500 if we're talking an extremely bits-intensive board game... but even then that's extremely ineffective from a cost to scale ratio.

5) Custom dice are stupid expensive, and again, we're talking 1000s if you want this done at a level that allows your game to be sold for less than $100+ MSRP. I'd strongly suggest retooling or revisiting your mechanics to determine why and if you need custom dice, or if your presentation is overly complicated for your actual needs.
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Chaddyboy
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Yes, I would strongly encourage you to do more research first! It sounds like you are a long ways from ready. Not saying this to be mean, just to save you a lot of grief!
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Joseph
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I completely agree with mothdevil. I was thinking the same thing, based on your other threads, but he was WAY more articulate then I would have been.

Spend some time on the D-Day Dice game pages:

D-Day Dice: Free Trial Version

and

D-Day Dice

This will show you how a game went from print and play to soon to be published via kickstarter.
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Donovan D
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I'm sure you're all correct. No offense taken.
But I have wanted to do this for a super long time and now I have decided that I absolutely am going to do it. I just stumbled onto this forum a few days ago and it seems like its going to be very very helpful. I'm not expecting it to take two weeks. I know I have a long road ahead of me. But I'm going to get started. Right now. Today.

My game would benifit only slightly from custom dice, so that's not an issue. The mechanics of Grimore only really need d6's of a few different colors but I thought it would be nice if players could customize their dice as well as decks but its not a big deal.

All my game really requires is six sided dice of various colors and cards.

The only costs I can think of are producing the cards, packaging, and marketing. What am I missing?

I was thinking I just needed to find an inexpensive way to print cards and to package them. I've done marketing professionally for products in the past including "tire fly's", my own book and e-books, and poetry prints years back. So here was my plan;
Create prototype with a POD company
Play test and work the bugs out
research packaging costs
Promote my game at local shops and conventions
Put it on Kickstarter

If I'm missing some things maybe you guys could help me out. I have no clue whatsoever how to go about getting packaging done so if someone could throw me a bone and maybe turn me on to a company that can do it, that would be great. I would also love to know where I could get cards printed at a lower cost/higher quality than POD's. Like I said, the dice are a non-issue.
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Nicholas Vitek
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1) Playtest it extensively.
2) Blind Test it
3) Playtest it some more
4) Finish the rulebook 100%
5) Blind test it
6) Minimize # of Components / Find Most effective use
7) Contact manufacturers to get it priced (Grand Prix, Panda, Ludo Fact, etc).
8) Determine Minimum # of Units * Unit Cost to get cost of manufacturing
9) Determine Shipping Cost to the different 'regions' to find a good shipping amount.
10) Determine appropriate pricing. Check to see if it'll actually be competitive in the market for similar weight / style / width of games.
11) Somewhere after 6, pay for artwork.
12) Determine final cost for producing all units and breakdown minimum number ot sell to breakeven on costs.
13) Somewhere way down the line, do a KS not forgetting shipping.
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Eric Etkin
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Navonod wrote:

I was thinking I just needed to find an inexpensive way to print cards and to package them. I've done marketing professionally for products in the past including "tire fly's", my own book and e-books, and poetry prints years back. So here was my plan;
Create prototype with a POD company
Play test and work the bugs out
research packaging costs
Promote my game at local shops and conventions
Put it on Kickstarter


At a high level, your plan isn't too bad. It's similar to what I was doing with TactDecks when I started about three years ago. Let's break it down:

Create prototype with a POD company - This actually needs to be third or forth on your list. The first things you need to do IMO are playtest the game "locally," ie., with yourself, friends - anyone you can sucker into it (and believe me - this can be hard... people generally don't like to try games they've never heard of). To do a "local" playtest, you don't need a POD prototype. If you're dealing with mostly cards, just either print them out on cardstock, draw them, whatever is easiest. A POD will set you back a minimum of about $10-12 per deck, and really, that's a level of professionalism you don't need with friends/family.

Play test and work the bugs out - Yep. Do that "locally" first, then -

Start working on your card layout. What's it going to look like? You don't need finished art, but you need a general idea of how you're going to present info. Once you do that -

Write the rules properly. Make sure they're as airtight and explain things as best you can. Then -

Get some decent looking mockups and "create prototype with a POD company" then -

Playtest the living crap out of it. Find people you DON'T know if you can. Give them the POD cards,some rules, and go. Take notes. Get feedback. BOTHER PEOPLE. Here's a word of advice you don't here around these parts often - most gamers will not pass up a free copy of a game. Once they HAVE that game though, it usually takes a backseat to other gaming priorities. I went through a LOT of free decks, giving them to players who said they'd playtest. I didn't vet these people well enough, or wasn't as up-front with my expectations. Net result? A couple hundred bucks of free product given away that translated to very little helpful feedback. Eventually, I found a decent groove with players genuninely interested, but it took awhile. Be discerning.

research packaging costs - Meh. Don't bother. If you're going POD before KS, most PODs offer tuck boxes. There you go. Make sure the packaging looks nice.

Ok - now the real fun begins - Once you've applied playtesting criticism, you need art. Good luck with that - it's not cheap. Either your graphic design needs to be clever enough to circumvent large amounts of unique art, or you need good personal artistic ability... or very deep pockets. Even the crappiest art for a card is going to set you back between $25 - $50 a pop. And how many cards are in your deck...?

Next (and this is assuming you want to sell this locally pre-KS... something based on experience I do NOT suggest). Apply your shiny art, snazz up your layout, tweak your rules and look, and get those files to your POD of choice. Then -

Promote my game at local shops and conventions - I suggest skipping this, unless you live in a huge metro area with a huge gamer population and happen to have local stores that will actually help PROMOTE your stuff, rather than take your product, bury it somewhere behind the counter where no one can see it, then take 50% of your MSRP. (As an aside to that - here's some fun math: POD deck of cards = $10 for 72 cards and tuck box. MSRP of your game = $25. Store takes 50% of the MSRP, leaving you with $12.50. That's a whopping $2.50 you've made per $10 up front investment, plus all the hard work you've done... and that's assuming you sell ANY through the store.) Conventions are a much better choice, but ONLY if you can find ones where people are coming to BUY. I've had some decent success sellign TactDecks through our online site using this model - enough to fund a graphic artist and a much better looking asnd tweaked game - but I think I may be the exception in this regard. For most, I'd advise avoiding selling POD - created game. It's not cost effective at all.

Ok - so here's the other things you gotta do: RESEARCH: Cost to print the game in 1000+ units. Costs to ship the game to buyers. Costs to make the game so far (did you pay money for art out of pocket? Do you care about paying yourself back?). What about press? Has your game gotten coverage anywhere? Ads, like maybe here on BGG? How are poeple going to find out about your game? There's a LOT of new games out there, so why should we care? You need to answer those questions and form an attack plan.

Put it on Kickstarter - Yep. NOW you're ready. IF you believe in your product, it looks TOTALLY professional, and you know how you're going to fulfill orders.

I could toot my own horn, but I won't - I'm not there yet. There's plenty of successes and failures here on BGG you should research. My personal favorite is Gunship: First Strike!. IMO, Steve is doing ALL the right things, and is a textbook case of how to do this right.
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Donovan D
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Help with packaging
I don't know what a tuck box is. does Artscow do them?

So I pretty much have a game plan but I still don't know how to do the packaging. Anyone know a good company that will help me with this? I'm looking for something like the boxes that MTG starters come in. Maybe a bit smaller (52 cards). There will be 104 cards in my first set. 100 effects and 4 Magus. I will use Artscow for

BTW: (this is not a magic the gathering rip off, not by a long shot, its totally different) For instance; it actually simulates a wizards duel. The use of dice is just as important as cards, the deck is not radomized but stacked, there are no land cards or resource cards, and there are only three spell types; not five colors. You manipulate the Material, Psychic, and Spiritual fields to manifest your spells. The only other peices you need are dice and I don't think I have to sell dice, you only need three different coloI have a good friend who's done art for me in the past for CHEAP, he did my logo for the poker site I write for and art for my strategy book for $50 total, that was 10 pictures, not his best work but not too bad.
I'm not too worried about the art costs because I think he'd do it again and for sure he would if I gave him a peice of any profit from sales. I just need to get the prototype, play test, and then find packaging and ways to market it. I don't know what a tuck box is
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Celina
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A tuckbox is a box made out of cardstock. Usually people put cards or tiles in them, although I have made them for dice.

Here are some examples, go look around. It is worth the time.

And tuckboxes for all!
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Eric Etkin
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This is a tuckbox:

http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/public/OvJcTmHOVfd_85vh3c9a...


Basically, it's a very thin skinned box made from the folding and gluing of a single piece of cardboard in order to "wrap" the deck. Think of it as shrink wrapping in cardboard form. It's typically made out of the same cardstock as the cards themselves - not suitable for shipping or long term storage, but good enough for a retail shelf and a gamer who'll likely rebox into a custom storage solution anyway.

Superior POD has tuckboxes. As does Gamecrafter and (I think) Guild of Blades. Artscow might too - I don't know... I hate navigating those damn non-gamer sites to find applicable product.

Generally, a POD will provide the template needed (either through an online GUI or downloadable PSD file) to align art and text on your tuckbox.

But be warned - tuckboxes have a very "cheap" connotation, especially if your game is of the non-CCG variety. Players typically expect a box that allows for long-term storage, unless you're selling something collectable like Pokemon. Putting product in a tuckbox IMO immediately reduces your asking MSRP by as much as 30%. Packaging is VERY important.

Also - POD companies like Superior POD print cards 18 to a sheet. If doing POD, you'll either have throw-away cards or you'll want your decks to consist of multiples of 18 (36, 54, 72, 90, etc.)

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Matt Lee
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Just a word of advice, if the game requires extra parts to play (like the dice), you may lose sales because it is incomplete. Most people expect a game to be playable out of the package, no matter how crappy the components. Even the Wizkids pocketmodel games came with tiny 6 sided dice that helped sell teh game as playable out of the pack..
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tom franklin
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klz_fc wrote:
Just a word of advice, if the game requires extra parts to play (like the dice), you may lose sales because it is incomplete. Most people expect a game to be playable out of the package, no matter how crappy the components. Even the Wizkids pocketmodel games came with tiny 6 sided dice that helped sell teh game as playable out of the pack..


Unless, of course, you're following the Cheapass Games model of only providing the bare basics for a game. whistle
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Donovan D
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There may be a small problem here for me.
In my game, a CCG format (without rares, uncommons, and commons) actually,.. a brief discription; Decks start stacked (you get 3 actions per turn) and your Magus's "Focus rating" allows you to re-stack top X cards by burning an action point, you refill your hand of X cards "concentration score" with one action and cast spells, activate items, move or attack with minions,etc for one action point each. One of the main strategic points of the game is in the rolling of dice. You will start the game with a number of dice in 1-3 types representing the Material, Psychic, and Spiritual fields. You burn a point to either roll a die into play or re-roll any number of dice in your "source pool"(think yahtzee,err kinda..
Depending on the Magus card you play with (4 in prototype set) you will have a max # of dice in your pool between 5-8.

So, the problem is, it would be nearly impossible to include enough dice to assure two or more players can play the game out of the box. If three players used the Magus with 8max pool, each with a different "Grimore" (deck) emphasizing seperate or identical spheres of knowledge (colors of dice) You would need a billion dice even though there will only ever be a max of 16 in play in a 2 player game. Really you would need 48 dice to assure any two players can use whatever dice they want.
For my situation, would it be understandable to not include the dice? (MTG requires the use of counters, tokens, plus something to track life points, and sometimes even a coin.)
Or would it be best to include some number of dice like, say 24, because that would usually suffice? I understand you can only give me your opinion(s) on this matter but I have no experience marketing a game so your opinions will help a lot.
Oh, and thanks for all the help so far.
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Eric Etkin
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Two options:

1) Redesign your game so it requires less dice.

2) Include only enough dice to be the maximum that ONE player can roll. Instead of allocating dice for pools, a la Quarriors, allocate chits, beads, whatever. When it's the player's turn, he picks up the appropriate amount of dice represented by his number of chits.

or, if allocating multiple chits is too fiddly, simply have a player record with a numerical counter on it. Place a single chit on the appropriate amount of dice currently in your "pool" to track it. So... for example, if I have 5 dice in my pool, I place a chit on the "5" on my player record to indicate that.

There's a number of ways to handle that, but the important thing to wrap your head around is that you can use proxies for the actual dice.

I'll admit that maybe picking and allocating the actual dice has a certain simple elegance to it, but including nearly 50 dice in a single game isn't remotely feasible, unless you're printing thousands and THOUSANDS of copies. It's a production scale most niche designer/publishers can't possibly reach.
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Brent Cunningham
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klz_fc wrote:
Just a word of advice, if the game requires extra parts to play (like the dice), you may lose sales because it is incomplete. Most people expect a game to be playable out of the package, no matter how crappy the components. Even the Wizkids pocketmodel games came with tiny 6 sided dice that helped sell teh game as playable out of the pack..


This, especially if you are planning on eventually launching a kickstarter campaign. Successful board game campaigns on kickstarter are ones that people can pledge for knowing that they are going to receive a finished product...not flimsy cards and a few dice in a tuckbox. (No offense intended of course, just going off of research that I've done.)

Do yourself a favor and read the pinned threads here: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/forum/26/boardgamegeek/board-ga... and whatever you have time for here: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/forum/974655/boardgamegeek/boar....

Then google up some printers and find out what information you need to provide them to get a quote for printing. Talk to Charles at this company, he's been very helpful:

Quality Playing Cards, Inc.
d/b/a Playing Cards R Us
7512 Dr. Phillips BLVD
Suite: 50-197
Orlando, FL 32819
407-298-3579 - All Services
407-532-2915 - Fax
sales@customizedplayingcards.com

There are a lot of domestic printers, all you have to do is take the time to find them and ask for quotes. If you want to look into international printing, I've found that Ludo Fact (Germany and China,) and Panda Games Manufacturing (China,) have been quite responsive.

Having done some checking around myself (I own Wishing Tree Games,) I can tell you that if your game needs 48 dice to be complete, and you want to print 1,000 copies, expect to spend around 4 1/2 to 5 cents per die...that's $2.40 per game on dice at the high end, or $2,400 for 1000 copies of the game. In the grand scheme of things, that's a pretty reasonable price to pay, considering the value that 48 dice add to a game.

As far as expenses, count on: printing (cards, box, assembly, shrink wrap, shipping to you,) dice, artwork, shipping to customers (fulfillment,) storage, website (domain name, server, design,) advertising/marketing (conventions, print ads of any type,) shipping of review copies, as well as the cost of review copies themselves, etc., etc. If you are going to form your own company, there are a multitude of expenses to consider for that also.

I hope all or some of this helps. Best of luck.
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Donovan D
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MOTHDevil wrote:
Two options:

1) Redesign your game so it requires less dice.

2) Include only enough dice to be the maximum that ONE player can roll. Instead of allocating dice for pools, a la Quarriors, allocate chits, beads, whatever. When it's the player's turn, he picks up the appropriate amount of dice represented by his number of chits.

or, if allocating multiple chits is too fiddly, simply have a player record with a numerical counter on it. Place a single chit on the appropriate amount of dice currently in your "pool" to track it. So... for example, if I have 5 dice in my pool, I place a chit on the "5" on my player record to indicate that.

There's a number of ways to handle that, but the important thing to wrap your head around is that you can use proxies for the actual dice.

I'll admit that maybe picking and allocating the actual dice has a certain simple elegance to it, but including nearly 50 dice in a single game isn't remotely feasible, unless you're printing thousands and THOUSANDS of copies. It's a production scale most niche designer/publishers can't possibly reach.


Great idea with the chits, but the dice pool each player has represents the configuration of source energy he has access to. Spells might have a requirement of say; or PR2(two P dice in resonance= two Psychic source dice (yellow for Psychic) and the same value, A yellow pair of 2's for instance. Your source pool stays in whatever configuration its in until you use a source bend action to re-roll some number of dice.

The game doesn't actually require that many dice, it's just that there are so many possible arrangements of dice a player can use. Also, the way I planned to sell the cards was by the set, $X for one of each card in the set, so people will need to buy more than one set or trade for cards they want to make an optimal deck (there could be a secondary market for singles this way, even without rares (just supply and demand). This is a customizable card game, just a very unique format.

I don't actually want to include 50 dice because; a)it would never be necessary for a player to have more than 8 dice and usually less than that. b)most gamers own dice. c) dice would likely be sold most places the game would be sold. d) I've considered allowing the use of 6, 8, and 10 sided dice in the future or maybe even in the finished original. and E) maybe most importantly, you can technically build a single deck out of a set of cards but not an optimal one and not more than one. So, I guess I have only a few alternatives
I could lower the max dice in play
I could disregard the idea of using anything but d6's
I could remove the concept of colored dice entirely(at least as realistic but lacks some flavor)
I could go with my original rule where players use the same source pool/dice; I think this is more realistic but the play testers I've used have all preffered having their own source pools to a single pool.
I could include just a small number of dice, maybe enough for one player in each box set.
I could package two preconstructed decks with dice required to play each one.
I could sell boxes of cards with and without dice
Or I could lower the max pool to 5, and include 30 dice, 10 of each color. or even lower max to 5 and include 5 of each color. Your not going to be able to make more than a single deck out of a set of cards anyway
Thanks for the ideas. I think, originall, it might make sense to just not include dice and see if the product sells at all (sort of a test market) if I find that people enjoy the game and it is marketable I could release sets that include cards and dice, sets of just dice (16X3colors) seperately, "duel packs with 2 preconstructed decks and dice for them , and eventually I would even like to consider some custom dice.
Thoughts?
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If I am buying a game, I want all the parts I need to play it in the box. Except for Cheapass games, where it is quite blunt about the need for more pieces. If you don't include dice, you are going to have to make it quite clear on the outside of the box "Not all pieces needed for play are included".
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Eric Etkin
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Navonod wrote:
Great idea with the chits, but the dice pool each player has represents the configuration of source energy he has access to. Spells might have a requirement of say; or PR2(two P dice in resonance= two Psychic source dice (yellow for Psychic) and the same value, A yellow pair of 2's for instance. Your source pool stays in whatever configuration its in until you use a source bend action to re-roll some number of dice.


Ok, now this is partially just generic advice, and please don't take it perosnally. When you're looking for suggestions on a game design forum, you MUST take into account that most of the people giving advice either know nothing about your game, or (provided you've posted rules) don't really have time to learn your game in order to give you a quick 2 cents of advice.

You'll help yourself GREATLY by formating your posts into less dense walls of text, and also explaining in-progress concepts as simply and generically as possible.

That said, I THINK what you're saying is that while a player might have 8 dice at any given time, the different color combinations of those dice that the player COULD have requires you to have a 48 dice load in your game.

If that's the case, then the chit method still works - you just need a different color chit to represent the different components. (and now I'm talking VERY genericly) So... my "Earth component" which used to be blue dice becomes a single blue chit that you put on the appropriate counter. If I have "4 earth" I take a single blue chit and pop it next to the 4.

If I have "3 sun" I take a single yellow chit and pop it next to the three. Seven dice (4 blue, 3 yello) now becomes 2 chits.

When it's my turn to roll, I pick out four generic dice and roll my earth. Then I pick out 3 generic dice and roll my yellow.

Done.

Navonod wrote:
This is a customizable card game, just a very unique format.


This really has nothing to do with your current quesiton, but I'll advise you the same way I've advised others looking to do a hobby game CCG - don't.

Again, with the print, design, and distribution scales rquired for a CCG, this will kill you. Make it ONE game, and include your hypothetical boosters in the BASE game. You'll be glad you did, and players won't feel they're getting a half-assed product.

Navonod wrote:
So, I guess I have only a few alternatives


Navonod wrote:
I could lower the max dice in play
Yes.

Navonod wrote:
I could disregard the idea of using anything but d6's
A thousand times YES, unless your mechanics are very specific to the different probabilities involved.

Navonod wrote:
I could remove the concept of colored dice entirely(at least as realistic but lacks some flavor)
Yes. A well designed player tracking card and quality chits will do just as good for flavor.

Navonod wrote:
I could go with my original rule where players use the same source pool/dice; I think this is more realistic but the play testers I've used have all preffered having their own source pools to a single pool.
Can't really comment without seeign the game in action.

Navonod wrote:
I could include just a small number of dice, maybe enough for one player in each box set.
Yes. Enough for one player during his/her turn. That's REALLY all you need.

Navonod wrote:
I could package two preconstructed decks with dice required to play each one.
Avoid this. You want ONE game. ONE box. Expansions can happen later after you're successful.

Navonod wrote:
I could sell boxes of cards with and without dice
Yikes. Rule of thumb? The amount of product SKUs a small publisher has to juggle is inversely proportional to the amount of hair remaining on his head.

Navonod wrote:
Or I could lower the max pool to 5, and include 30 dice, 10 of each color. or even lower max to 5 and include 5 of each color. Your not going to be able to make more than a single deck out of a set of cards anyway
If this doesn't affect your play or mechanics, than yes, it's another way to deal with it. But keep in mind, the COG for your componenets will add up very fast. $2 worth of dice might not seem like a lot, but when you're adding 100 cards, a nice box, instructions, etc., it mounts up REAL quick.
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Matt Lee
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Well, just keep in mind that the test market idea would not give you any kind of idea how marketable the game really is. Of course, you are free to consider and reject the collective posts so far, but you would need a very, very strong product to overcome the lack of dice, especially if you could need as many dice per player as your posts suggest.

Cheapass games did reasonably well for a while but ultimately died off and they only charged $5 for a whole game. The low price and the gimmick of the company's designs made it work because you knew there could be components you'd need, but those were explicitly printed on the packages, and people knew to expect that from the brand.

The exception that can be an argument is Munchkin as the earliest versions did not even include a die while copies still do not contain level counters, but I suspect the product succeeded despite those limitations due to the reputation of SJ Games with their fans who introduced the game to others, and people played it from there. You'd have to overcome that as a new publisher with no previous publishing history.
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Steve Dubya
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MOTHDevil wrote:
Navonod wrote:
Great idea with the chits, but the dice pool each player has represents the configuration of source energy he has access to. Spells might have a requirement of say; or PR2(two P dice in resonance= two Psychic source dice (yellow for Psychic) and the same value, A yellow pair of 2's for instance. Your source pool stays in whatever configuration its in until you use a source bend action to re-roll some number of dice.

That said, I THINK what you're saying is that while a player might have 8 dice at any given time, the different color combinations of those dice that the player COULD have requires you to have a 48 dice load in your game.

If that's the case, then the chit method still works - you just need a different color chit to represent the different components. (and now I'm talking VERY genericly) So... my "Earth component" which used to be blue dice becomes a single blue chit that you put on the appropriate counter. If I have "4 earth" I take a single blue chit and pop it next to the 4.

If I have "3 sun" I take a single yellow chit and pop it next to the three. Seven dice (4 blue, 3 yello) now becomes 2 chits.

When it's my turn to roll, I pick out four generic dice and roll my earth. Then I pick out 3 generic dice and roll my yellow.

Done.

Along these lines, also consider some sort of play may that has colored sections to place generic dice, or a player aid that has different colored tracks with numbers that you could place a token on to indicate how many of a given resource die type you might have at your disposal.
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Andrew Rowse
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Navonod wrote:
The game doesn't actually require that many dice, it's just that there are so many possible arrangements of dice a player can use. Also, the way I planned to sell the cards was by the set, $X for one of each card in the set, so people will need to buy more than one set or trade for cards they want to make an optimal deck (there could be a secondary market for singles this way, even without rares (just supply and demand). This is a customizable card game, just a very unique format.


There are quite a few customisable card game projects on KS at the moment, mostly following the LCG model. IIRC, none of them are doing especially well. The gaming world kind of got sick of CCGs, and really only supports a couple of big ones.

To be brutally blunt, I think you should drop the CCG plan completely. Rework your project so that it is playable without requiring players to spend time sitting by themselves designing a deck. If you can't do that, I think you'd be better of abandoning it and working on something else.
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Peter Wiles
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Navonod wrote:
You will start the game with a number of dice in 1-3 types representing the Material, Psychic, and Spiritual fields. You burn a point to either roll a die into play or re-roll any number of dice in your "source pool"(think yahtzee,err kinda..
Depending on the Magus card you play with (4 in prototype set) you will have a max # of dice in your pool between 5-8.


An option to avoid colored dice would be to have a player board with three areas represented on it for each "field". The players allocate their dice by putting them physically into the desired areas. That gives you an immediate visual reference for what the dice are representing.
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Consider going to thegamecrafter.com and pricing out your game as you see it. It will at least give you an upper bound.

Heck, consider not using kickstarter, but getting a prototype version up on GC instead. They just got the indented dice you're looking for.
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The Game Crafter now has custom dice:

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/753289/custom-printed-dice-n...




Also maybe you should launch your game on the game crafter instead? I think it's better and more complete than artscow.
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Jesse Samford
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I just want to say that this discussion was exactly what I was looking for. Everyone's opinion on this subject is very helpful. I mostly stopped in to find reviews(of sorts) about The Game Crafter but got the information I needed that extends beyond that. Thanks to you all!
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