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Subject: Pitcher's Point of Weakness rss

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Hugh Grotius
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I just finished a 2010 Red Sox-Yankees game, and both starters (Sabathia, Bucholtz) went the distance, with New York winning 4-2. I found I had no incentive to replace either starter because the Point of Weakness (POW) was never triggered for either. When the POW innings arrived (7th for Sabathia, 6th for Bucholtz), neither starter ever gave up more than one walk or hit an inning.

I was playing the Super-Advanced Rules. As I understand the endurance rule, either the starter has to give up 3 walks/hits in one inning, or 4 total walks/hits over two consecutive innings. Obviously neither pitcher gave up five runs in an inning.

Is there any other way to trigger pitcher fatigue? (My guess is no. I saw an older thread suggesting a variant reducing the number of required triggers for the POW.) I guess pitcher rest can be a factor, so maybe that's a partial answer? I was just playing a one-time-only game for fun, not a whole season.
 
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Isaac Citrom
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Hugh, this is not a direct answer. I haven't played in a dog's age. In my day there was just basic and advanced rules. I recall that fatigue kicked-in automatically just after his limit, such that dots became singles. Maybe that was a house rule in our league and I just wasn't aware of it.

The POW rules as I read them kinda don't make sense to me. It's as if the rules are saying once a pitcher gets fatigued via the dice--by accident--then the fatigue rule kicks-in. That doesn't make sense to me. The dot mechanic is supposed to represent that a pitcher has become fatigued. Otherwise, whether your pitcher gets tired or not is just a matter of blind luck, albeit his pitching limit limits that window of luck.

When I played in a league it was rare that a starter went 9 innings. Also, don't forget that your roster may well have fantastic relievers that you just can't wait to drop in. Depending on the players in hand I may well have gone to a star reliever (a closer), the starter's fatigue not withstanding.
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Hugh Grotius
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Thanks, Isaac. That's a pretty good answer, even if it isn't "direct," hehe.

If I understand the Super-Advanced rule correctly, then I share your view that it's not optimal. I do like the idea that a pitcher doesn't automatically get tired when a particular inning starts, but I think the chance of fatigue should go up steadily once he gets to that point of the ballgame. With all the other detail in this game, I'm surprised there isn't some mechanism for gradual increase in fatigue. I can understand that it's not practical to implement pitch counts, but maybe batter counts or some such? I'm curious how other players approach this issue.

And yeah, next time I'll "roleplay" and put in a reliever/closer anyway. But for my first re-visit of the game, with the new (to me) Super-Advanced rules, I was curious how the fatigue rule would play out. Much as I miss the day of the complete game, I'm not sure the current rule gives us enough incentive to bring in a reliever, much less to pinch-hit for our pitcher if there's no DH.
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Brian Mc Cabe
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I've never played the game, but I'll just throw in my two cents based on the game of baseball itself.

In order to play the game, you've almost got to have an appreciation, if not love, for the game of baseball. Even though the game has changed drastically over the past twenty plus years, pitchers still go the distance occasionally.

What you had was a rare pitchers duel, in which both starters went the distance. With the American League designated-hitter rule, there was no need to pinch-hit for the losing pitcher.

I've got the game on order and will welcome these types of games.

Brian
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Isaac Citrom
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Hugh, I'll just add that the advanced rule does make sense to me. That is, the rule where the dots become singles instead of outs and that that starts automatically at the pitcher's point of fatigue.

What the rule says to me is that statistically the pitcher started to give up more hits in say, for example, the 7th inning. So, the dot rule kicks in automatically. But, that doesn't mean the pitcher will automatically give up more hits. He may well retire every batter until the end of the nineth. It's just that he is now more likely to give up more hits due to fatigue.

So, you see, even if the dot rule kicks in automatically at a very specific point, the game mechanic as designed does not automatically reflect fatigue. Because, after all, how do we determine a fatigued pitcher: when his performance starts to degrade.

So, doesn't this rule give you exactly what you're looking for. That is, a representation of fatigue without fatigue effects being predictable.


Moreover, if I recall correctly, pitchers did not have the same number of dots on their respective cards nor were they positioned in the same probability spots. That's more to the game mechanic right there. It says that even when fatigued, some pitchers fell apart more than others. I remember that sometimes I just left a pitcher in because even if fatigued I risked just a single dot in a low probability area of his card.
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Brian Mc Cabe
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SJBenoist wrote:
Yeah, it's just that baseball has changed quite a bit since those type of rules were written. CG's keep dropping, but as late as '88 you could still find plenty of guys with a dozen or so at the end of the season.

There is one reason (managerial) to still pull those guys, though ... if the game is on the line and you have a better match-up out of the pen.


SJ I don't follow baseball at all and haven't since the strike in '81, so I checked Baseball-Reference.com to find out how many complete games each team had. The Phillies had the most with eighteen and Tampa Bay, second with fifteen.

I know baseball has been in the era of pitching specialists for quite a while, but I would still attempt the complete game when it presented itself.

I very much like the answer above. My opinion would probably change if the pitcher's fatigue kicked in with the asteric at seven, not so much at three.

Brian

 
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Brian Mc Cabe
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My response was in answer to this:

Quote:
There is one reason (managerial) still pull those guys, though . . . if the game is on the line and you have a better match-up out of the pen.


That is the way the game is played today, without a doubt; but, there are enough complete games being thrown that that shouldn't be an absolute.

It's usually the ace of the staff that's getting that complete game, but checking the stats, even what appear to be spot starters have them. One of the teams had three pitchers with four each.

I'll have to play some to see how it works. I might very well have no choice but pull them; but I wouldn't want do it every time, specifically because a few complete games are still being thrown.

That said, the teams with the fewest had two; so there might be a ton of pitchers with their asteric at seven. But just like the real game, it's going to have to be on a game-by-game basis.

Brian
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Colin Lewis
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In today's baseball, it seems that pitch counts rule the day and would typically contribute to or determine pitcher's fatigue. I don't love that the rules use a strict inning number (plus the hits/walks given up after that) as the determining factor.

I'm just getting back into the game after a few years of absence, but I'll be looking for some ideas for tweaking this rule, maybe adding a pitch count layer of detail.

I'd like to simulate scenarios where a pitcher gets shelled early, forced into a quicker-than-normal fatigue, and just "doesn't have it" on that day and exits early.

From the OP, this game could have been a 12-10 scoring affair, all runs coming early and not after the POW was reached. Or am I missing something?
 
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