Judd Vance
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I have 5 examples of VASSAL screen shots on LOS. My gut tells me I'm wrong on some of these, but I cannot reconcile my gut with what I read in the rules. The rules make sense in every other way. I'm just having a little trouble with the hedgerows. Can somebody check these and confirm or correct? Thanks.

Example 1:



The LOS crosses the hedgerow covered hex spine between D2/E2, blocking LOS.



Example 2:



Both units are adjacent to the hedgerows. The LOS crosses through two hedgerows, but not along a hedgerow-covered hex spine. This is no different from a D1 - D4 LOS, so the unit in D1 has LOS.


Example 3:



The LOS does not run along the hex spine of D3/E3. It intersects that hex spine, it does not run parallel to it. Because both units are parallel to the hedgerow, the unit in D1 has LOS.


Example 4:



The LOS does not run along the hex spine of D4/E4. It intersects that hex spine, it does not run parallel to it. Because both units are parallel to the hedgerow, the unit in D1 has LOS.


Example 5:



The LOS does not run along the hex spine of D4/E4. It intersects that hex spine, it does not run parallel to it. Because both units are parallel to the hedgerow, the unit in D1 has LOS, but because the unit's range is exceeded, it will fire at 3 firepower.
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Jens Hoppe
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From the rules:

Quote:
Hedgerows block LOS unless unless the firer and/or target is adjacent to the hedgerow. LOS directly along a hedgerow hex spine is blocked.


Based on this, my interpretation is as follows:

- In example 1, LOS is blocked thanks to the "directly along a spine" rule.
- In examples 2-5, LOS is blocked because it crosses a hedgerow not adjacent to either firer or target.
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Krzysztof Rzymkowski
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LOS is blocked in all of the examples, because the line crosses a hedgerow that is not adjacent to the target and firerer.
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Sean McCormick
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Yep, those are all blocked.
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Judd Vance
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Thanks, all... that makes sense, and that was what my gut told me, but I still don't make it jibe with the rules. They say:

"Hedgerows block LOS unless the firer and/or target is adjacent to the hedgerow."

That is saying in all 5 instances, SO FAR, LOS is not blocked. If the defender or attacker were a hex away from their respective hedgerow, it would be blocked... continuing...

"LOS directly along a hedgerow hex hex spine is blocked."

Example #1 is blocked.

And that's all it says about LOS. After that, it talks about "Terrain benefits" which I take it to mean, gaining the +2 modifier when the enemy fires (I believe so, because the phrase "LOS" isn't being used):

"Target units get terrain benefits from a hedgerow only if they are in a hex adjacent to the hedgerow and the fire attack passes through that hedgerow. If fired at through the hedgerow while moving behind that hedgerow, they get the benefit and are also not considered moving in the open."

I take that to mean if you have units on opposite side of the same hedgerow, that unit gets the +2 Die Roll Modifier benefits (if they started there, rather than moving into or out of here, as the next section specifies). In other words, if the attacker is on one side and the defender is 2 hexes away, then he's running around an open field. The attacker sticks his gun through the hedge and can shoot him a lot easier...

So with that, I can't find anything about LOS being blocked if it crosses the hedgerow at a hex that is not adjacent to the target adjacent to the hedgerow. Am I missing something? Was this discussed in another thread?
 
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Andrew S. Fischer
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I was wondering about this myself. Too bad the rulebook didn't include these visual examples....
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Krzysztof Rzymkowski
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asfhgwt wrote:
I was wondering about this myself. Too bad the rulebook didn't include these visual examples....

Here's one I've created (verified by Jim, amongst others):
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David Janik-Jones
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I think part of it is that you can see into, but not through, a blocking terrain feature.

The LOS rules also state that if a terrain feature (hedgerow, building etc) has the LOS line on both sides of the object, the LOS is blocked.

All of these examples have a hedgerow with units not adjacent to each other and a LOS thread that crosses a blocking LOS terrain object on both sides of the line.

[Chris' example is a good one.]
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Andrew S. Fischer
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I wonder if the idea is that unless the opposing units are on opposite sides of a hexrow perpendicularly, then LOS is blocked. This would be due to looking diagonally through the hedgerow, which would be too thick to see through.
 
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Sean McCormick
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asfhgwt wrote:
I wonder if the idea is that unless the opposing units are on opposite sides of a hexrow perpendicularly, then LOS is blocked. This would be due to looking diagonally through the hedgerow, which would be too thick to see through.


Correct. Units would dig into hedgerows by digging holes under the hedges. That will give you straight ahead vision, but you won't have terribly good sight lines left or right.
 
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Jim Krohn
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Jens, Chris, and Sean are all correct.

They are blocked because the line is passing over a hedgerow that is not adjacent to either the firer or the target. Just like if it passed over a building, it is blocked.

I've got another idea about how to phrase it to make it more clear:

The hedgerow has to be on one of the six, physical hexsides of the firing hex or the target hex for it not to block LOS.

The part in the rules about the hexspine was to clear up any confusion - some people might consider hedgerows along hexspines to be adjacent.
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airjudden wrote:
Thanks, all... that makes sense, and that was what my gut told me, but I still don't make it jibe with the rules. They say:

"Hedgerows block LOS unless the firer and/or target is adjacent to the hedgerow."

That is saying in all 5 instances, SO FAR, LOS is not blocked. If the defender or attacker were a hex away from their respective hedgerow, it would be blocked... continuing...


You seem confused about what "hedgerow" means here. It isn't the "line of trees that extends for multiple contiguous hexes from E2 to E6." Just because you are standing next to a hedgerow in E6 doesn't mean you are adjacent to the hedgerow hex in E4 when your LOS passes through the hedges.

edit: it now occurs to me that the confusion might instead be around the use of the word "adjacent". If you are in E6 you are not "adjacent" to the hedgerow in E5.
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Gustavo
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rzymek wrote:
asfhgwt wrote:
I was wondering about this myself. Too bad the rulebook didn't include these visual examples....

Here's one I've created (verified by Jim, amongst others):


Sorry about the noob question, but assuming there were no hedgerows in this map, wouldn't LOS to E6 be blocked by the unit at E5? This is how it worked in M44, and although it seems pretty obvious to me, I would like an official reply...

Thanks!
 
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Judd Vance
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No. You can fire through units (yours or enemy), but not into a hex with your own units.
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Gustavo
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airjudden wrote:
No. You can fire through units (yours or enemy), but not into a hex with your own units.


Are there any modifiers for this? I mean, shooting through units should make it more difficult to attack!
 
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Judd Vance
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Think about how much space a person takes up in an open field. They don't take up the entire hex (or in this case, a squad). And if they are keeping low (as they would be), it makes that much more sense.
 
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Gustavo
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How about LOS from F1 to D3? In this case the hedgerows are on "one of the six, physical hexsides of the firing hex or the target hex," although slightly different from F1 to D2.
 
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Judd Vance
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You have LOS.

The way I understand it is this: each time the LOS intersects a hexside of a hedgerow, either the target or the shooter must be adjacent to that hexside.

In your case, the first intersection happens at F1/E2. Is either shooter or target in one of those hexes? Yes (shooter is in F1).

Next intersection occurs at the hexside of D3/E3. Since target is in one of those hexes (D3), then you have LOS.
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Gustavo
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airjudden wrote:
You have LOS.

The way I understand it is this: each time the LOS intersects a hexside of a hedgerow, either the target or the shooter must be adjacent to that hexside.

In your case, the first intersection happens at F1/E2. Is either shooter or target in one of those hexes? Yes (shooter is in F1).

Next intersection occurs at the hexside of D3/E3. Since target is in one of those hexes (D3), then you have LOS.


That's what I understood too, based on this whole discussion above. I thought it would be better to have someone else's opinion though. Thank you.
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Ilias Sellountos
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Simple rules for hedgerows as I understand them:
1. On a hexside of the firer's hex: Ignore, as if it does not exist.
2. On a hexside of the target's hex that is not also a hexside of the firer's hex: +2
3. Anywhere else, including exactly along a hexside: No LOS.
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Kyle S
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Shemar wrote:
Simple rules for hedgerows as I understand them:
1. On a hexside of the firer's hex: Ignore, as if it does not exist.
2. On a hexside of the target's hex that is not also a hexside of the firer's hex: +2
3. Anywhere else, including exactly along a hexside: No LOS.
Is number two correct?
 
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