True Blue Jon
United States
Vancouver
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In these threads, we discuss the text and what we think of it. This discussion is open to everyone.

This Jewish translation from the Tananch is found here:
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16476

Another translation can be found here:
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt3303.htm

Esther - Chapter 3

1. After these events, King Ahasuerus promoted Haman the son of Hammedatha the Agagite and advanced him, and placed his seat above all the princes who were with him. 2. And all the king's servants who were in the king's gate would kneel and prostrate themselves before Haman, for so had the king commanded concerning him, but Mordecai would neither kneel nor prostrate himself. 3. Then the king's servants who were in the king's gate, said to Mordecai, "Why do you disobey the king's orders?"

4. Now it came to pass when they said [this] to him daily, and he did not heed them, that they told [this] to Haman, to see whether Mordecai's words would stand up, for he had told them that he was a Jew. 5. And when Haman saw that Mordecai would neither kneel nor prostrate himself before him, Haman became full of wrath. 6. But it seemed contemptible to him to lay hands on Mordecai alone, for they had told him Mordecai's nationality, and Haman sought to destroy all the Jews who were throughout Ahasuerus's entire kingdom, Mordecai's people.

7. In the first month, which is the month of Nisan, in the twelfth year of King Ahasuerus, one cast the pur-that is the lot-before Haman from day to day and from month to month, to the twelfth month, which is the month of Adar. 8. And Haman said to King Ahasuerus, "There is a certain people scattered and separate among the peoples throughout all the provinces of your kingdom, and their laws differ from [those of] every people, and they do not keep the king's laws; it is [therefore] of no use for the king to let them be. 9. If it pleases the king, let it be written to destroy them, and I will weigh out ten thousand silver talents into the hands of those who perform the work, to bring [it] into the king's treasuries."

10. And the king took his ring off his hand and gave it to Haman the son of Hammedatha the Agagite, the adversary of the Jews. 11. And the king said to Haman, "The silver is given to you, and the people to do to them as it pleases you."

12. And the king's scribes were summoned in the first month, on the thirteenth day thereof, and it was written according to everything that Haman had ordered to the king's satraps and to the governors who were over every province, and to the princes of every people, each province according to its script and each people according to its tongue; it was written in the name of King Ahasuerus, and it was sealed with the king's ring. 13. And letters shall be sent by the hand of the couriers to all the king's provinces, to destroy, kill, and cause to perish all the Jews, both young and old, little children and women, on one day, on the thirteenth day of the twelfth month, which is the month of Adar, and their spoils to be taken as plunder.

14. The copy of the writ was for an edict to be given in every province, published to all the peoples, to be ready for that day. 15. The couriers went forth in haste by the king's order, and the edict was given in Shushan the capital, and the king and Haman sat down to drink, and the city of Shushan was perturbed.
5 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Binkowski
United States
Rochester
Michigan
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
The Jews have often been contrary to the other peoples of this world because of their adherence to God's laws as handed down through Moses.

Just think how much more the True Jews - those born of God's Spirit - contradict and enrage the rulers of this world!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
True Blue Jon
United States
Vancouver
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
"True Jews"? You may want to rethink that.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Sarxis wrote:
The Jews have often been contrary to the other peoples of this world because of their adherence to God's laws as handed down through Moses.

Just think how much more the True Jews - those born of God's Spirit - contradict and enrage the rulers of this world!

and this kind of attitude is why I and so many others consider christianity to promote antisemitic attidues.

When you decide you're the "true" Jews, that means actual Jews are somehow "false" Jews.

EDIT:
For BJ, No, I'm not saying all Christians are antisemitic. I'm saying Christianity as an ideology in the hands of far too many promotes antisemitism.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
True Blue Jon
United States
Vancouver
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
whac3 wrote:
and this kind of attitude is why I and so many others consider christianity to promote antisemitic attidues.


Just remember that Christianity is an extremely broad label. I think it would be better to narrow our ire to the specific aspects that promote such attitudes.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
True Blue Jon
United States
Vancouver
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
And there goes discussing Esther!
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
bjlillo wrote:
whac3 wrote:
When you decide you're the "true" Jews, that means actual Jews are somehow "false" Jews.

EDIT:
For BJ, No, I'm not saying all Christians are antisemitic. I'm saying Christianity as an ideology in the hands of far too many promotes antisemitism.


So who is the arbiter of "true" Jews? I seem to remember you putting up some specific criteria for who can call themselves Jewish before. Perhaps I'm misremembering though. I'd hate to have to suggest you yourself were acting in ways that would be considered anti-Semitic were you to apply your own criteria to yourself.

LOL

You are reaching today, as usual. The halakhic criteria for being a Jew, which I did not set but the Torah does, is that a person be born of a Jewish mother or convert through a halakhically recognized beit bin, i.e., court of Jewish Law.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
quozl wrote:
And there goes discussing Esther!

Sorry, Jon.

This illistrates one of many reasons why I usually stay out of these threads. I try to respect what you're doing, but in many ways I think my presence will inevitably lead to disruptions of these kinds.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chad Ellis
United States
Brookline
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
whac3 wrote:
The halakhic criteria for being a Jew, which I did not set but the Torah does, is that a person be born of a Jewish mother or convert through a halakhically recognized beit bin, i.e., court of Jewish Law.


I thought you had said more than that. IIRC, you said that someone who didn't observe or didn't believe (e.g. an atheist) could still be a Jew but that someone who held to beliefs that contradicted some aspects of Torah (e.g. so-called Jews for Jesus) could not be.

I may have made a hash of that; my apologies if so.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
True Blue Jon
United States
Vancouver
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Don't worry about it, guys. I blame Sarxis.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Chad_Ellis wrote:
whac3 wrote:
The halakhic criteria for being a Jew, which I did not set but the Torah does, is that a person be born of a Jewish mother or convert through a halakhically recognized beit bin, i.e., court of Jewish Law.


I thought you had said more than that. IIRC, you said that someone who didn't observe or didn't believe (e.g. an atheist) could still be a Jew but that someone who held to beliefs that contradicted some aspects of Torah (e.g. so-called Jews for Jesus) could not be.

I may have made a hash of that; my apologies if so.

I think you did make a hash of it.

Someone actually a Jew who converts to Christianity is a Jew but they are committing a crime called avoda zara, most often translated as idolatry but functionally treason. Literally adoption of foreign practices, albeit a legal term. As such, they are entitled to none of the privileges of being a Jew but are subject ot the obligations under Law.

I did say that so-called Messianic Judaism is not Judiasm but a form of Christianity.
4 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chad Ellis
United States
Brookline
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
whac3 wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
whac3 wrote:
The halakhic criteria for being a Jew, which I did not set but the Torah does, is that a person be born of a Jewish mother or convert through a halakhically recognized beit bin, i.e., court of Jewish Law.


I thought you had said more than that. IIRC, you said that someone who didn't observe or didn't believe (e.g. an atheist) could still be a Jew but that someone who held to beliefs that contradicted some aspects of Torah (e.g. so-called Jews for Jesus) could not be.

I may have made a hash of that; my apologies if so.

I think you did make a hash of it.

Someone actually a Jew who converts to Christianity is a Jew but they are committing a crime called avoda zara, most often translated as idolatry but functionally treason. Literally adoption of foreign practices, albeit a legal term. As such, they are entitled to none of the privileges of being a Jew but are subject ot the obligations under Law.

I did say that so-called Messianic Judaism is not Judiasm but a form of Christianity.


That helps; so am I right that a Messianic Jew is still a Jew (albeit one who has committed avoda zara) but what they practice is not Judaism?
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Chad_Ellis wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
whac3 wrote:
The halakhic criteria for being a Jew, which I did not set but the Torah does, is that a person be born of a Jewish mother or convert through a halakhically recognized beit bin, i.e., court of Jewish Law.


I thought you had said more than that. IIRC, you said that someone who didn't observe or didn't believe (e.g. an atheist) could still be a Jew but that someone who held to beliefs that contradicted some aspects of Torah (e.g. so-called Jews for Jesus) could not be.

I may have made a hash of that; my apologies if so.

I think you did make a hash of it.

Someone actually a Jew who converts to Christianity is a Jew but they are committing a crime called avoda zara, most often translated as idolatry but functionally treason. Literally adoption of foreign practices, albeit a legal term. As such, they are entitled to none of the privileges of being a Jew but are subject ot the obligations under Law.

I did say that so-called Messianic Judaism is not Judiasm but a form of Christianity.


That helps; so am I right that a Messianic Jew is still a Jew (albeit one who has committed avoda zara) but what they practice is not Judaism?

If the person was Jewish to begin with, then yes, but in most cases they aren't. I've known plenty of them. Few are actually Jewish.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stuart
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmb
quozl wrote:
And there goes discussing Esther!


I'll give it a go:

We're told Haman was an Agagite, so does that mean he was a direct descendant of the Amalekite King Agag?

I recently watched "One Night With the King", and they made that implication in the movie. They also had him wearing a swastika-esque kind of brooch. But that could, of course, just be Hollywood making it count.

I looked into the swastika angle a bit, but couldn't find any direct connection to Amalek, only to "Babylonish roots", etc., so I suppose it's entirely possible either way. As one could expect, there were a lot of parallels being drawn with A. Hitler, as well, and so I wonder if he became aware of such a connection to his beloved symbol and felt compelled to follow in Haman's steps as a result?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
gamesterinns wrote:
quozl wrote:
And there goes discussing Esther!


I'll give it a go:

We're told Haman was an Agagite, so does that mean he was a direct descendant of the Amalekite King Agag?

Yes, that's exactly what it means.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
True Blue Jon
United States
Vancouver
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
gamesterinns wrote:
I recently watched "One Night With the King"


Do you recommend it?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Andersen
United States
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I do enjoy these threads.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stuart
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmb
quozl wrote:
gamesterinns wrote:
I recently watched "One Night With the King"


Do you recommend it?


Most of the actors were pretty unfamiliar to me, but it actually was quite well done, as it seemed to stick quite close to the Biblical narrative, although it does explore the palace intrigues a bit further to good effect. Haman was perhaps overplayed a little, perhaps for more drama, as he's shown regularly performing Hitler-style rants, but it does make one consider exactly how he might have gone about stirring up bad feelings towards the Jews amongst the common people.

The visuals are excellent, giving us a glimpse of the opulent luxury enjoyed by the Persians. Esther and the other ladies are indeed not hard to look at, but my wife was not overly impressed by the King, and Vashti goes right over the top in one scene with her "Royal Headdress".

We watched it twice, so, yes, I guess I'd have to say I'd recommend it.


edit: spelled scene wrong - must've been too early shake
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Eig
United States
Huntington
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Not the most exciting chapter - villain comes in, we twirl our groggers as he twirls his mustache. I will note that the words of Haman could be coming from a National Socialist 80 years ago... two millenia later and so little has changed - kill the outsiders for being scattered and different, and take their gold
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.