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Subject: Slave Revolt Question rss

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Jim Scheiderich
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I think this is just a case of poor wording:

30.421 "Fifteen tokens... This effect is resolved immediately. After the end of the current calamity phase, the tokens again function normally."

My issue is with the last sentence and in context of "current calamity phase".

If the tokens are again usable as soon as Slave Revolt is over (before other calamities [level 5 and above] are resolved) that is OK and as we have played it - but one could read that these tokens (the 15 that do not support; 20 if holding Mining) are useless until ALL calamities are resolved. That could leave you totally FUBARed by say Epidemic and raises issues of how you would resolve say Barbarian Hordes (do these guys just lie down and not fight?)!

It's funny how one can read rules 20 times and still come away with issues - maybe we see what we want to.

My guess is that this is just poor wording. Maybe they intended the "This effect is resolved immediately" (as are all Calamities...) to ensure that the tokens again regained their usefulness.
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Romain Jacques
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I agree. It is only poor wording. We've always played that after this calamity is resolved, the tokens can be used for other calamities.
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Michael Aldridge
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Romain wrote:
I agree. It is only poor wording. We've always played that after this calamity is resolved, the tokens can be used for other calamities.


I agree with Romain's assessment. We treat each calamity as a self-contained event, and when it's done, we resolve the next calamity with the board as it currently stands.
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Jim Scheiderich
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That's I was hoping to hear.

Thanks
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Jennifer Schlickbernd
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Quote:
After the end of the current calamity phase, the tokens again function normally.


Unnecessary wording, just ignore it. I don't even know if I saw that wording, it sounds like something Don Greenwood would put in.
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Bruce Schlickbernd
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It's just there to let you know that they are not permanently unavailable for city support. They do not become immune to disease, marauding barbarians, etc., and are not permanently identified in any fashion.
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Dan Corrin
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Quote:
26.5 City support is checked only at two critical points in each turn after the removal of surplus population and after the resolution of calamities. These two points are indicated in the Sequence of Play. City support is not checked at any other time, other than when resolving Slave Revolt (30.42).


I believe the key here is "after the resolution of calamities", i.e. after the calamity phase.

So the slave revolt tokens are usable again. Though if you lumped the support check into the calamity phase, I can see how a different interpretation can be reached.
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Jim Eliason
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My take on this is that the revolting tokens (flipped over for easy calculations) do not count for city support until all calamities are resolved. However, the revolters may be taken as losses in subsequent calamities. And they would defend normally against barbarians.
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Dan Corrin
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jeliason wrote:
My take on this is that the revolting tokens (flipped over for easy calculations) do not count for city support until all calamities are resolved. However, the revolters may be taken as losses in subsequent calamities. And they would defend normally against barbarians.


Not to disagree with your preferred style as that seems interesting to sacrifice revolting citizens to calamities, but if you were to wait until after all calamities to resolve the revolt, they wouldn't need the line "not checked at any other time other than when resolving slave revolt" when the two times listed for support check is surplus population and end of calamities.
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Jim Eliason
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dcorrin wrote:
jeliason wrote:
My take on this is that the revolting tokens (flipped over for easy calculations) do not count for city support until all calamities are resolved. However, the revolters may be taken as losses in subsequent calamities. And they would defend normally against barbarians.


Not to disagree with your preferred style as that seems interesting to sacrifice revolting citizens to calamities, but if you were to wait until after all calamities to resolve the revolt, they wouldn't need the line "not checked at any other time other than when resolving slave revolt" when the two times listed for support check is surplus population and end of calamities.


I think we're both right. When slaves revolt and are flipped, unsupported cities are reduced immediately; I never intended to suggest othewise. However, the slaves are still revolting and will not count for city support during subsequent calamity resolutions the same turn. So for example, if Barbarian Hordes hit after a Slave Revolt, it would be prudent to put the slaves in the path of the barbarians. If only loyal citizens get killed, more cities might have to be reduced due to lack of non-revolting farmers.
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Dan Corrin
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jeliason wrote:
dcorrin wrote:
jeliason wrote:
My take on this is that the revolting tokens (flipped over for easy calculations) do not count for city support until all calamities are resolved. However, the revolters may be taken as losses in subsequent calamities. And they would defend normally against barbarians.


Not to disagree with your preferred style as that seems interesting to sacrifice revolting citizens to calamities, but if you were to wait until after all calamities to resolve the revolt, they wouldn't need the line "not checked at any other time other than when resolving slave revolt" when the two times listed for support check is surplus population and end of calamities.


I think we're both right. When slaves revolt and are flipped, unsupported cities are reduced immediately; I never intended to suggest othewise. However, the slaves are still revolting and will not count for city support during subsequent calamity resolutions the same turn. So for example, if Barbarian Hordes hit after a Slave Revolt, it would be prudent to put the slaves in the path of the barbarians. If only loyal citizens get killed, more cities might have to be reduced due to lack of non-revolting farmers.


Yes but you don't check for support during the Barbarian Hordes so it doesn't matter which people are killed. After all the calamities are done, you check support, but as it is after the calamities the revolt is over.
At least that is my take. I don't recall this coming up during playtesting.
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John Burt
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dcorrin wrote:
Quote:
26.5 City support is checked only at two critical points in each turn after the removal of surplus population and after the resolution of calamities. These two points are indicated in the Sequence of Play. City support is not checked at any other time, other than when resolving Slave Revolt (30.42).


I believe the key here is "after the resolution of calamities", i.e. after the calamity phase.

So the slave revolt tokens are usable again. Though if you lumped the support check into the calamity phase, I can see how a different interpretation can be reached.


The support check is part of the calamity phase, it doesn't make sense that you do a support check in the Acquire Civ Cards phase. As part of the calamity phase you would be doing a support check without the help of the revolting slaves. Therefore, you cannot count those 15 slaves as support for cities.
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Dan Corrin
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Xlyce wrote:
dcorrin wrote:
Quote:
26.5 City support is checked only at two critical points in each turn after the removal of surplus population and after the resolution of calamities. These two points are indicated in the Sequence of Play. City support is not checked at any other time, other than when resolving Slave Revolt (30.42).


I believe the key here is "after the resolution of calamities", i.e. after the calamity phase.

So the slave revolt tokens are usable again. Though if you lumped the support check into the calamity phase, I can see how a different interpretation can be reached.


The support check is part of the calamity phase, it doesn't make sense that you do a support check in the Acquire Civ Cards phase. As part of the calamity phase you would be doing a support check without the help of the revolting slaves. Therefore, you cannot count those 15 slaves as support for cities.


I'm not certain where the confusion is here. You don't check for support, say after the barbarian hordes come through, you don't check after an epidemic. But you do check after a slave revolt (as a special case).
Once the slave revolt is resolved and you move on to the next calamity the slaves are no longer revolting, the calamity is resolved. So when it comes to the end of the phase (after all the calamities are done and resolved) you check for support again (during the calamity "phase"). In this latter check the revolting slaves are done and count for support of your cities.
Why would there be a penalty for both checks? If the revolting slaves couldn't be used for support in the latter check, why make a special check during the resolution of the revolt?
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John Burt
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The rules are:

Quote:
29.8 Once all calamities are resolved, players must again check for city support as explained above (26.3).


Quote:
30.421 Fifteen tokens belonging to the primary victim may not be used to support his cities. This effect is resolved immediately. After the end of the current calamity phase, the tokens again function normally.


This tells me that the tokens in the slave revolt cannot be used for city support until after the the last city support is done at the end of the calamity.
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Romain Jacques
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For me, the check is done after the calamity phase, when the 15 tokens again function normaly.
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John Burt
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Romain wrote:
For me, the check is done after the calamity phase, when the 15 tokens again function normaly.


That would be the buy cards phase, which is different.
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Jim Scheiderich
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I never realized how much response there could be to this question.cool

1) I think we could ALL agree it is not definitively worded.

2) If a group wants to leave the Revolting Units out from any support purpose until the calamity phase is over, then they should decide that up front. And they have to decide how the Slaves would be treated WRT Epidemic and Barbarians. It stands to reason that they would NOT be immune from the 2 aforementioned calamities. Since the units are yours again at the end of the calamity phase, "throwing the slaves" under the Barbarian bus is not a useful - nor likely legal approach as Barbarians make each move based on the most immediate damage not on some optimized route...

3) I think the treatment issues of the Slaves is better answered by the questions raised on Epidemic and Barbarians. And no one has piped up to say they would be immune from a Flood...

Thanks all for your comments, it says a lot about a game that can generate this much interest in a rule issue 20+ years after publication.
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Steve Bachman
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Case A wrote:
Revolting tokens remain flipped and unavailable to support cities for the remaining calamity phase (all calamities) and city support check.

Raises a couple of complicated questions: How are these flipped tokens treated for subsequent calamities? For the purposes of subsequent calamities, are they counted as units of the civ from which they are revolting or are they "neutral" slaves and uncounted?


Case B wrote:
Revolting tokens are flipped over and return to normal at the conclusion of the Slave Revolt.

Raises a single simple question: What's with the wording in 30.421 "...After the end of the current calamity phase, the tokens again function normally."


Which seems more likely, the rules omitted several significant sections dealing with revolting slaves (Case A), or the rules used a loose phrase to describe the current segment of the overall phase (Case B)?

I've always played the latter, and haven't heard a convincing argument to the contrary.

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John Burt
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LHIM wrote:
2) If a group wants to leave the Revolting Units out from any support purpose until the calamity phase is over, then they should decide that up front.


Well that is how the rule is worded...


LHIM wrote:
And they have to decide how the Slaves would be treated WRT Epidemic and Barbarians. It stands to reason that they would NOT be immune from the 2 aforementioned calamities. Since the units are yours again at the end of the calamity phase, "throwing the slaves" under the Barbarian bus is not a useful - nor likely legal approach as Barbarians make each move based on the most immediate damage not on some optimized route...


They are always yours, they just don't support cities. They can still be affected by barbarians, epidemics, etc.

LHIM wrote:
3) I think the treatment issues of the Slaves is better answered by the questions raised on Epidemic and Barbarians. And no one has piped up to say they would be immune from a Flood...


Well, why would they be immune to anything? They have not changed sides, they have just quit working (or they are rioting).
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Romain Jacques
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Xlyce wrote:
Romain wrote:
For me, the check is done after the calamity phase, when the 15 tokens again function normaly.


That would be the buy cards phase, which is different.


Why you cannot check support between phases?

After the conflict phase you check support before the next phase, it is the same between the calamity and the buy advances phases.
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John Burt
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Romain wrote:
Xlyce wrote:
Romain wrote:
For me, the check is done after the calamity phase, when the 15 tokens again function normaly.


That would be the buy cards phase, which is different.


Why you cannot check support between phases?

After the conflict phase you check support before the next phase, it is the same between the calamity and the buy advances phases.


Because if you are checking between phases, you have created a new phase (check for city support) instead of going from Resolve Calamities directly to Aquire Civ Cards

Quote:
29. RESOLUTION OF CALAMITIES


Quote:
29.8 Once all calamities are resolved, players must again check for city support as explained above (26.3).


Please notice how they are in the same section of the rules (29).

Quote:
30.421 Fifteen tokens belonging to the primary victim may not be used to support his cities. This effect is resolved immediately. After the end of the current calamity phase, the tokens again function normally.




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Roland Hackler

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From the 2nd Edition Questions and Answers on page 22 of the Advanced Civilization Rules of Play & Gamer's Guide:

30.42: Slave Revolt -- Can the 15 tokens in revolt be used to support cities later in the same calamity phase?

A: No. It's possible that the effect of a Slave Revolt could be magnified by subsequent calamity, but in practice idle slaves are usually the first to fall to an epidemic and other higher-ranked calamities.
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David Aber
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Xlyce wrote:
Romain wrote:
Xlyce wrote:
Romain wrote:
For me, the check is done after the calamity phase, when the 15 tokens again function normaly.


That would be the buy cards phase, which is different.


Why you cannot check support between phases?

After the conflict phase you check support before the next phase, it is the same between the calamity and the buy advances phases.


Because if you are checking between phases, you have created a new phase (check for city support) instead of going from Resolve Calamities directly to Aquire Civ Cards

Quote:
29. RESOLUTION OF CALAMITIES


Quote:
29.8 Once all calamities are resolved, players must again check for city support as explained above (26.3).


Please notice how they are in the same section of the rules (29).

Quote:
30.421 Fifteen tokens belonging to the primary victim may not be used to support his cities. This effect is resolved immediately. After the end of the current calamity phase, the tokens again function normally.


This is correct -- the city support check at the end of the Calamity Phase is part of the Calamity Phase.
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