Mike Paivinen
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The You Are A Cylon card named "Can Damage Galactica" says to draw up to 5 Galactica damage tokens. Then, "Choose 2 of them to resolve and discard the others." In this context, discard isn't defined in the rulebook or any FAQ that I've found. We have decided to interpret discard as "remove from the game". Any thoughts?

Our thinking goes like this: The Cylon is allowed to rummage through up to 5 damage tokens to find the two he wants to resolve. However, the penalty for choosing more than 2 is that the excess tokens are removed from the game. This can be quite painful if any of the discarded tokens are Galactica locations. If the card isn't to be interpreted this way, than the use of "draw up to 5 ... tokens" doesn't make any sense. There would be no penalty to always drawing 5 tokens. The card could simply be worded as "... you may draw 5 Galactica damage tokens. Choose 2 ..."
 
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Nicola Bocchetta
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It sounds more logical this way:

The Cylon players picks up randomly 5 tokens. Looks at them and chooses 2. He puts the other 3 back in the pool (and randomizes the pool). He resolves the 2 he has chosen. For each, if it's a "damage a location" token, he puts it on the relative space of the board (and moves characters in that location to Sickbay). If it's a resource token, lowers the respective resource and puts the token back in the game box, out of play.
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i think the discarded tokens are still available for further damage on galactica..

otherwise, destroying galactica would be impossible for the cylons after the token are discarded.
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Archon286 Brad
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I agree with your evaluation of the wording. However, the people responding must be right... it doesn't make sense to remove the possibility of a 'damage galactica' win.

Draw 5, pick 2, send the other three to the pile.
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Pieter
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You are thinking too much. Draw 5 tokens. Resolve 2. Put the rest back.

Otherwise, the Cylons could never win anymore by damaging Galactica. There are only 6 Galactica-damage tokens, and you need to damage 6 Galactica locations as a Cylon to win.

If you really had to remove them from the game, it would have said so. E.g., look at the Inspirational Speech Quorum cards. They specifically say "if the speech is successful, remove the card from the game, otherwise discard it."

I agree that the rulebook is quite ambiguous and vague, but that is standard FFG fare. I complained about that myself quite often. However, I have to say that I never saw anybody ever have any problems with the Can Damage Galactica power.
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They were probably trying to head off the rules lawyers who would cry "but what if there are fewer than 5 tokens left??!!" and insist that the reveal power would be unusable in that case without the words "up to." As always, play it whatever way is most fun for your group, but I think it's crazy to suggest that it was the designers' intention to remove the tokens from the game permanently.
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Mike Jones
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In general, BSG using 'discard' when discarding something into a pile or pool to be used again later. When they want it removed from the game, it says 'remove from game'.

I think they used discard here to reinforce that if you draw one of the resource damage tokens and don't choose it that you discard it and don't remove it from the game.
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Jim McMahon
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As always, "Do what the card says, not what it doesn't say."
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Guantanamo wrote:
In general, BSG using 'discard' when discarding something into a pile or pool to be used again later. When they want it removed from the game, it says 'remove from game'.

I think they used discard here to reinforce that if you draw one of the resource damage tokens and don't choose it that you discard it and don't remove it from the game.
And even then that shouldn't be necessary, as even if you draw resource damage tokens, it's the RESOLVING of them where you deduct the resource from the appropriate resource dial and THEN it gets removed from the game. It's the same concept as cards in this game.... drawing and resolving have distinctions in this game, like how Rosin's Religious Visions are worded to say both DRAW and RESOLVE, although it does help by explicitly stating the the other card is put on the bottom of the deck.

It seems one difference that a typical gamer is expected to know is that with cards, they're discarded and don't become available until the discards get shuffled to form a new draw pile. While some games have tokens/tiles that work that way, the rulebook makes no mention of putting tokens in the box (aka discarded, but since nothing gets reused, once in the box, there it stays*), nor foreshadow you to that by including a drawstring cloth bag.

* for Ionian Nebula from Exodus, you instructed to put unused trauma tokens back into some "draw pool".

.

Flyboy Connor wrote:
You are thinking too much. Draw 5 tokens. Resolve 2. Put the rest back.

Otherwise, the Cylons could never win anymore by damaging Galactica. There are only 6 Galactica-damage tokens, and you need to damage 6 Galactica locations as a Cylon to win.
That would've been a neat cylon tactic with Pegasus exp... use that reveal power to draw 4 of the 5 damage tokens from Pegasus, discard 3 of them, and now whenever the Colonial Fleet bleets out "let's just damage Peggy", they can't b/c all 1 of Pegasus' damage tokens have already been drawn cool
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Shawn Garbett
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I think the purpose of the "up to" clause, is because Galactica may already be beat to hell. There may only be a possibility of drawing less than 5. It's pretty dire for the humans if that occurs.

Additionally, it leaves it optional. Somebody, may wish to grab 2 and slap them down in the interest of getting the game onward.
 
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Mike Paivinen
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jimmcmahon wrote:
As always, "Do what the card says, not what it doesn't say."


You know ... it's easy to say something like that. But in this case, the problem is that "discard" is not a defined term for Galactica damage tokens. There is no such thing as a "discard pile" for Galactica damage tokens; there is only the randomized draw pool. The card could have easily said "Return the unused tokens." Instead, it chose to use an undefined term.

Given the preponderance of responses, we'll start playing it as the unused tokens are returned to the draw pool. I can see why the card might use "up to" to cover the case where there are fewer than 5 damage tokens remaining.
 
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Mooseulie Ferenczy
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I agree with the ruling that discarded tokens are returned to the pile of unused tokens, both for balance and flavor reasons. A reveal power that could make the game unwinnable is sort of silly and there is no logical reason why some cylon bombs would make parts of Galactica invincible. However, I did look at the rule book to see what it had to say about damage tokens in general. It fairness it does say that damage tokens are reshuffled into the draw pile when a repair is used (or a basestar is destroyed) not discarded, so no help there. On the other hand, resource tokens are explicitly removed from game and also don't use the phrase discarded. In light of all that, I'm just convince that FFG doesn't think through its phrasing all the time (a not uncommon belief). Given the game balance issues of punishing a player for using a power to its fullest extent by making an unwinnable scenario, I still have to rule that discard in this instance means shuffle back into the draw pile.
 
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Darren Nakamura
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knupug wrote:
But in this case, the problem is that "discard" is not a defined term for Galactica damage tokens. There is no such thing as a "discard pile" for Galactica damage tokens; there is only the randomized draw pool. The card could have easily said "Return the unused tokens." Instead, it chose to use an undefined term.


The rule book doesn't explicitly define the term "return" either.
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knupug wrote:
I can see why the card might use "up to" to cover the case where there are fewer than 5 damage tokens remaining.
In fact, all of the reveal powers are worded as "may do such and such bad thing" to make it clear that revealing isn't contigent on getting to use your reveal power. Frankly, the "if you're not in the Brig" part was sufficient for me, but whatever.
 
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Doesn't Repair say to "discard" the damage token it's used to fix?

Also, I can't think of a single game in which the word "discard" means "remove from the game entirely".

ackmondual wrote:
In fact, all of the reveal powers are worded as "may do such and such bad thing" to make it clear that revealing isn't contigent on getting to use your reveal power. Frankly, the "if you're not in the Brig" part was sufficient for me, but whatever.

There are situations in which a Cylon may conceivably not want their reveal power to do anything when they reveal even if it legally could. Maybe the only human on Galactica is in Sickbay, and the humans are running low on Skill Cards, so sending that character to the Brig and leaving the humans with more Skill Cards and fewer Crises would help them, so a Cylon may not want to send a character to the Brig. Or maybe the Sleeper Phase is about to occur and reducing Morale would make the Sympathizer join the humans, which is not desirable. Or maybe the humans are about to Airlock your Cylon buddy, so making them draw Treachery will hurt you. Or maybe you want to not send the other person on Galactica to Sickbay/Brig because you know they're the other Cylon - or because you want the humans to think you know they're the other Cylon to turn them against each other.

At any rate, the option of not using the reveal power doesn't make the game any worse, it allows for a few clever situational plays, and using the reveal power is such an obvious default option that analysis paralysis doesn't become a factor, so as far as I can see the "may" clause is good for the game.
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salty53 wrote:
At any rate, the option of not using the reveal power doesn't make the game any worse, it allows for a few clever situational plays, and using the reveal power is such an obvious default option that analysis paralysis doesn't become a factor, so as far as I can see the "may" clause is good for the game.
No arguments there.
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Mooseulie Ferenczy
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salty53 wrote:
Doesn't Repair say to "discard" the damage token it's used to fix?

My cards do not say that. It just say fix a location. The rules for repair don't use the word discard either.
Rules lawyer away!
*whoosh*
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