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Subject: d10s! rss

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Jordan Chavez
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Use d10s instead of d6s.

The problems with d6s:
- computers too powerful
- shields useless unless attacker has computers
- starting ships too weak in comparison to end-game ships

My suggestion is to use d10s instead and have the base hit roll be 8 or higher. 10s always hit and 1s always miss.

Consequences:
- computers weaker: only give 1/10 dmg per plus, instead of 1/6.
- shields even if the attacker doesn't have computers
- buffs starting ships so the "range" between starting and final ship designs isn't as large: a gluon CPU only makes a ship 2x as good (30% -> 60%) instead of 4x as good (17% -> 67%).

You could try d8s for a similar but lesser effect.
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Greg Lott
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jchavez wrote:
Use d10s instead of d6s.

The problems with d6s:
- computers too powerful
- shields useless unless attacker has computers
- starting ships too weak in comparison to end-game ships

My suggestion is to use d10s instead and have the base hit roll be 8 or higher. 10s always hit and 1s always miss.

Consequences:
- computers weaker: only give 1/10 dmg per plus, instead of 1/6.
- shields even if the attacker doesn't have computers
- buffs starting ships so the "range" between starting and final ship designs isn't as large: a gluon CPU only makes a ship 2x as good (30% -> 60%) instead of 4x as good (17% -> 67%).

You could try d8s for a similar but lesser effect.


How many games have your played? I'm at close to 20, and disagree with pretty much all of your points.

First off... how can you say computers are too powerful and shields are useless in the same breath? Computers WOULD be too powerful, but shields are the tech that keep them from being overpowered. Yeah, shields are useless unless your opponent has computers, but so what? They'll probably get computers... and if they don't, spend your tech elsewhere. And a -1 shield is ALWAYS useful. Some ships are blueprinted as default with +1 computers, as are the ancients and GDC.

Starting ships SHOULD be weak compared to the end game ships. Otherwise, why would you bother to spend all those actions teching up and upgrading ship parts?

Again... this feels like commentary from someone who has not played the game much. Play it a few more times as is and I think you'll see that your concerns are simply not valid.
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Jordan Chavez
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I've played 20+1 games. One more than you, therefore all of my opinions are correct and all of yours are wrong. That's how it works, right?

I didn't say shields are useless, I said shields are useless unless the attacker has computers, which is true. If there are no computers, then the attacker hits no a 6 and shields do nothing.

Second, I didn't say that un-upgraded ships should be more powerful than upgraded ships. I said that they shouldn't be more powerful to the degree that they are now. You believe that the game is, as printed, perfectly balanced such that upgraded ships are superior to un-upgraded ships by an amount which is exactly commensurate to their technology costs, I don't.

Again... this feels like commentary from someone who's played the game one less time than I have. Play the game a few more times and I think you'll see that your counter-concerns are simply not valid.
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Jeff A
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One subject that I agree with is that the computers do seem to overweight the weapons, and if sufficient shields are unavailable then you are SOL.
 
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Greg Lott
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Ok... Here's the thing. It gets kind of old reading variant after variant on these boards written by people who've played a game one time and have the brilliant insight to fix what the designers in their hours/days/months have failed to even notice much yet fix. So, considering I've never heard anyone complain about the items you mentioned, coupled with the fact that from my point of view I've never had any kind of issues with these items, you appeared to fit this profile. If I'm wrong, I apologize. But I don't think I am.

To put a fine point on it, though, you can't say computers are too powerful AND shields are underpowered. You gotta pick one. These two techs are so obviously tied together, I can't believe we're arguing about it.

And regarding the ship upgrades... I don't know, I guess. It seems fine to me. But you have your opinion. I also have mine. Mine's not better but I suspect more people are in my court than yours.

Maybe I'll become enlightened on my next play, but as of now I completely disagree with you. Get mad if you want. I don't care. I'm just calling it like I see it.
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Greg Lott
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TVojta wrote:
I like this idea a lot. I have only played once, but I watched many games being played at a convention recently here in Atlanta. My observation was the missiles are crazy overpowered. (Non-empirical).

Can you comment on what this would do to missiles? It seems that the person with the most missiles did much better.

This again... *groan*

In this at least the naysayers have company. A lot of people bitch about missiles. But the truth is shields (yes, OP, I said shields) and double hull go a long ways to handling missiles. If missiles don't kill everything with that opening volley, their done.
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Greg Lott
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Fair points... Feeling extra surly today, I'll try to not post on days like this. I apologize to any offended parties.

I certainly agree about one thing. The bigger the BGG community, the better, and I certainly don't want to be a hindering factor in that regard.
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Greg Lott
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TVojta wrote:
ferris1971 wrote:
Fair points... Feeling extra surly today, I'll try to not post on days like this. I apologize to any offended parties.

I certainly agree about one thing. The bigger the BGG community, the better, and I certainly don't want to be a hindering factor in that regard.


+1 and some geek gold for taking the high road on this, thanks Greg.


Wow, thanks!

Sometimes it pays to be a jerk.



All cantankerousness aside, I STILL disagree with the OP. If he really has had multiple games, I wonder if it's all with the same people? Do we have some group-think going on here? Truthfully, the OP's concerns aren't really controversial. Missiles are, but even there I'm firmly in the camp that Antti and Sampko's years of testing handled them correctly.
 
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Jeremy Diachuk
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I will note that you can indeed state that computers are overpowered and shields are underpowered in the same breath. This is, in fact, on purpose. Computers are meant to scale better than shields so that late game, the combats don't drag on and on now that people can build larger ship armies. There's a +3 Computer but there isn't a +3 Shield that you can research. Likewise, you start with a +1 Computer being available but have to research the Shield, and the +2 Computer is cheaper to research than the -2 Shield.

However, what sets the computers a step above the shields is actually the initiative bonus.

If you have a +2 Computer, then I can research a -2 Shield and put it on my ship. It has the same energy cost as your Computer (both with 1 energy cost) but when our ships do battle, your ships have +1 Initiative compared to mine. This means that even in the event of a tie while I'm defending, you still get to fire first. On the other hand, if I were to get a +2 Computer instead, then I would fire first on the defense and since I would be hitting on a 4+ as well, it's very possible that I could destroy multiple attacking ships before they can retaliate. This is more effective in preventing further damage to my ships than giving them shields. With the shields, both sides have equal chances to hit except your opponent fires first. Without them, both sides still have equal chances to hit except you fire first.

Shields are still valuable, but I find them much better if you combine them with Computers to have a mix, since then even if you don't fire first, you have a much higher chance to hit. However, this means you have to be one upgrade ahead of your opponents (since you have to match their computers with your shields while also ending up with more computers than them, and also researching the shields) so really the -1 Shield is mostly used for taking out Ancients (as it effectively halves their effectiveness in combat) whereas I don't particularly find the -2 Shield to be all that useful.

Edit: Oh, yes, the -2 Shield is useful against heavy Plasma Missile fleets as well. However, I'd say that Plasma Missiles and better computers are a better anti-Missile technique, it's just that you won't necessarily see two Plasma Missile technologies in any given game (so the -2 Shield gives you another way to more easily handle them).
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Scott Lewis
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One other reason I think the "computers are overpowered, shields are underpowered" is potentially a valid statement is scope of the tech. The computer side has a distinct advantage - the player really only needs to put computers on one ship type in many battles... but for the other player to defend against them in any given battle, they'd have to have shields on each ship type that the computer ship may face in battle. Otherwise, the computer ship will just pick off the less shielded ships first if necessary.

I don't know if the differences is gamebreaking, I admit I haven't played it enough to determine that long term. But I have played it enough to know that Computers are definitely the better investment; shields are mostly only useful as a counter-measure (Gauss Shields and Ancients/GCDS being the possible exception).
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Timo Hohkala
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For the sake of argument, let's assume we used d10s. What would you need to score to hit?

10? It would drag on the battles way longer and make early combat practically useless.

6? not much better choice either.
 
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Stephen Stewart
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twibs wrote:
For the sake of argument, let's assume we used d10s. What would you need to score to hit?

10? It would drag on the battles way longer and make early combat practically useless.

6? not much better choice either.


8 was the hit # suggested in earlier posts here.

That would give value to Shields where no computers are in play.

I think using the d6 in every game is weak. AT LEAST move up to the d8. The percentages only skew slightly. By about 4% per value.


ALSO,

Please list the typical # of players you play with.
Opposing points could be valid given that one person only plays 2 player while the other plays only 6 player. ITS a different game at that point and strategies (Should) change.

Don't assume that everyone plays with the same # of competent players.

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David Murray
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jchavez wrote:
Use d10s instead of d6s.

The problems with d6s:
- computers too powerful
- shields useless unless attacker has computers
- starting ships too weak in comparison to end-game ships

My suggestion is to use d10s instead and have the base hit roll be 8 or higher. 10s always hit and 1s always miss.

Consequences:
- computers weaker: only give 1/10 dmg per plus, instead of 1/6.
- shields even if the attacker doesn't have computers
- buffs starting ships so the "range" between starting and final ship designs isn't as large: a gluon CPU only makes a ship 2x as good (30% -> 60%) instead of 4x as good (17% -> 67%).

You could try d8s for a similar but lesser effect.


"- computers too powerful
- shields useless unless attacker has computers"
If computers are too powerful as you say then everyone will use them and therefore shields will never be useless.

"-starting ships too weak in comparison to end-game ships"
I think this is quite deliberate, the game forces you to research new parts and upgrade your ships.
 
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Harald Torvatn
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ferris1971 wrote:
TVojta wrote:
I like this idea a lot. I have only played once, but I watched many games being played at a convention recently here in Atlanta. My observation was the missiles are crazy overpowered. (Non-empirical).

Can you comment on what this would do to missiles? It seems that the person with the most missiles did much better.

This again... *groan*

In this at least the naysayers have company. A lot of people bitch about missiles. But the truth is shields (yes, OP, I said shields) and double hull go a long ways to handling missiles. If missiles don't kill everything with that opening volley, their done.

If missiles dont kill everything with that opening volley, they retreat and come back next turn to kill the rest.
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Carter
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jchavez wrote:
Use d10s instead of d6s.

The problems with d6s:
- computers too powerful
- shields useless unless attacker has computers
- starting ships too weak in comparison to end-game ships

My suggestion is to use d10s instead and have the base hit roll be 8 or higher. 10s always hit and 1s always miss.

Consequences:
- computers weaker: only give 1/10 dmg per plus, instead of 1/6.
- shields even if the attacker doesn't have computers
- buffs starting ships so the "range" between starting and final ship designs isn't as large: a gluon CPU only makes a ship 2x as good (30% -> 60%) instead of 4x as good (17% -> 67%).

You could try d8s for a similar but lesser effect.


I think it's a good idea, and well explained. It is true that shields are a less useful part (I feel the same way about the drive), relative to computers. But, since the techs are limited in availability, then this just makes it that much more critical that you are start-player.

Adding D10s is fairly trivial, so it's a nice variant from that perspective.
 
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Michael Evans
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I love that with this variant, picking up gauss shield early can actually be potentially useful against early players (who haven't gotten computers yet) and not just ancients/GDC.

If I were to use d8's instead of d10's, should the hit threshold be 6 or 7? 7 is closer to the 30% "unmodified" hit rate you have with your d10 variant. But hitting on 6's keeps Phase Shields useful against somebody with no computer.
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I like this variant.

Moreover I really like the fact, that I see many my friends from old good times of TI3 wiki here playing Eclipse!
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Michael Evans
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It's great to see you too, Umpapa! I miss the TI3 board...
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I miss it too, Mike.

"Just say no to Plasma Missiles!"
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E K
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you can shoot the all missile ships two times before they leave...
 
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Tom W
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I like the idea. Will give it a shot at the gameshop tomorrow and see how it fits.

I personally like boardgaming to be a fun experience and whenever a game or tactic leaves a sour taste with my buddies I do look for ways to make our games more fun.

Jordan you see why I dont engage with the BGG on-line community. Great source of ideas but notorious for naysaying just about any point of view one comes up with. The opinions of the guys we game with each week are more important so lets give it a shot at the store.

Watch, someone will flame this post too!

Tom
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Scott Lewis
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Michael Evans
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Tried it once so far... so far, so good!

And I can barely stand the BGG community, for the same reasons listed above. If I want to bang my head against a wall, I might as well be debating religion and politics!
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Scott Lewis
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Mike_Evans wrote:
And I can barely stand the BGG community, for the same reasons listed above. If I want to bang my head against a wall, I might as well be debating religion and politics!

Mike, for what it's worth some forums are less hardheaded than others here It seems the more diehard the fanbase, the harder it is to have a converstation without insults being slung around
 
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Tom W
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So I tried a 2p game using the D10's and initialy it worked nice and smooth. I turtled up and starting maxing out my economy with 4 lucky sector draws in a row, while my opponent just saved up several rounds took PM's cleared the galactic core to prop up his own very small economy, and then stopped for a breather. The next 3 turns were essentially an arms race as I got -2 shields and improved hull which oddly enough did not show up till late game, and then he went and took +3 computers and I was screwed. The final showdown ended being up fairly similar to the original PM problems that even with balanced -2 or even -4 shield designs he woudl be hitting on either 4's or 6's both of which would net him at least 6 hits to start with. It stil slowed him down a bit but in the end he had explored a side way into my territory, pinned my 2 startbases with a cruiser and interceptor and flew his dread back into my underbelly and netron bombed a few systems. I did end up killing all of his stuff but 1 of his 2 dreads and if the game went to a 10th round I might have come back, but at that point I had sacrificed just too much for defense and he beat me a resounding 35 to 17 (after the loss of one of my systems) with the galactic center, better reputation tiles, and a monolith he built.


SO..............

basically 1 game of tryign this out was initially better in the beginning but the end felt about the same with me not having a useful mobile counter to his missle cruisers and dreads. Once someone has a dread with 2 +3 computers on it Im just screwed. Im still willing to try it again but I am leaning towards trying my 4hp shard hull / 5 damage antimatter cannon method.
 
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