Amin
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For the first edition, after many games, we all developed a few good opening moves for Lannister, particularly on Turn 1, and also Turn 2 (based on different card draws). With the Clash of Kings expansion cards, particularly Jaime's negation of the Valyrian steel blade, Lannister was finally able to hold its own on turn 1.

Lannister's opening moves in the 2nd edition remain as important as ever, perhaps even more now with the new House Cards, which significantly favour Greyjoy (though Ser Kevan Lannister could be crucial if used carefully by Lannister). As in the 1st edition, if Lannister does not play well early on they will be crushed. I know 3rd party diplomacy is crucial for Lannister, but let's just focusing on what they can do on their own for now.

So: what are some good opening moves, particularly on Turn 1, but also on Turn 2 (based on card contingencies)?

I am particularly concerned of the situation where Grejoy absolutely wants to take Riverrun on turn 1. Not only to gain the the potential muster points, but to deny Lannister the potential muster points. Is there any way to stop this? Is there any way to take this loss and gain something from it? (i.e. retreat into Seaguard, force Greyjoy to commit a larger army, or to make Greyjoy waste a good card?)

If Grejoy lets Lannister gain Riverrun on first turn, then their situation has already improved somewhat and Lannister can get going on with a better start. I am particularly concerned with an all out Greyjoy attack on turn 1.
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Sabzevarian wrote:
I am particularly concerned of the situation where Grejoy absolutely wants to take Riverrun on turn 1. Is there any way to stop this?


If Greyjoy wants to take Riverrun on turn 1, he can do it by playing:

Greyjoy's staggered attack on Riverrun
- fleet support +0
- Greywater's Watch march -1 to Pyke,
- Pyke march +0 all units (1 knight 2 footmen) to Riverrun.

If Lannister counters with

Lannister tries to take and hold Riverrun
- ship raids Greyjoy fleet (changed with raven from defense +2)
- Footman Stoney Sept support +1
- Footman + Knight Lannisport march +1 to Riverrun

Lannister enters first Riverrun, has to defend.
Lannister: 2 Footmen + 1 knight + 1 support = 5 strength
Greyjoy: 2 Footmen + 1 knight + Valyrian blade = 5 strength
=> Greyjoy certainly wins if he plays Euron. However, any non-staggered attack from Greyjoy can be countered with this move by Lannister if Tywin is played.

If Lannister has to retreat, he can retreat to Seagard. Outcome:
Greyjoy Knight + 2 footmen in Riverrun
Lannister Knight + 2 footmen in Seagard
Things look grim for both players.

However, Lannister has a second possibility:

Lannister's Retribution

Play the raven to muster a catapult in Lannisport. Next turn, if Lannister is still higher on the Iron Throne track (has initiative):

If no mustering card has been drawn:
- ship raids Greyjoy fleet (changed with raven from defense +2)
- Footman Stoney Sept support +1
- Footman + Knight + Catapult Lannisport march +1 to Riverrun

Attack strength:
2 Footmen + 1 Knight + 1 Catapult + march +1 + support +1 = strength 10

Greyjoy only defends with:
2 Footmen + 1 Knight + defense +1 + Valyrian blade = strength 6

Lannister plays Ser Gregor. Greyjoy has no tower cards. The Greyjoy army is annihilated.

If a mustering card gets drawn, Greyjoy could promote two footmen to two knights in Riverrun (total strength now 8), but Lannister could attack with a knight promoted from footman (total strength 11) or even an additional siege engine (total strength 13). The outcome is the same. Three Greyjoy knights get slaughtered by the Mountain that Rides.

So what is crucial, for the Lannister's Retribution strategy, is not to lose initiative in the event of a Clash of Kings.
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Amin
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Edit - just posted while you were editing yours (last thing I saw was "Things look grim for both players"), sorry for overlap, I will read full post later and continue the chat. Thanks for the detailed post cool

With a slight modification of that starting outcome, Greyjoy can get Seaguard as well: guaranteed if he spends 2 power with Aeron or by chance, if he gambles without spending the two power.

If Greyjoy puts one footman into Seaguard and attacks with the rest, he will have 4 total (3 + blade) against Lannister's 5. Playing Balon would beat Tywin because of Balon's text. But Balon would lose to Ser Kevan, because of Kevan's text. Playing Euron would beat Ser Kevan, but lose to Tywin. Using Aeron can guarantee a win, although at the cost of 2 power. Is the 2 power cost worth it? [latest edit, the italicized portion only counts when following the start-up that groups the Lannister units and attacks together (Kevan only works while attacking). And that only works if Greyjoy marches into Riverrun with the first march order - I have to rethink this part]
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neko flying
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Very nice Amin, I hadn't thought of using Balon to also get Seagard.

However, this opening is still vulnerable to Lannister's Retribution I have explained above. Paying 2 power practically guarantees that Lannister can keep a higher position on the Iron Throne track even if there is a Clash of Kings. And even if a Mustering card is drawn, Lannister still gets a much stronger attack with the additional Catapult built on turn 1.
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Sorry, I have this very bad habit of editing my posts lots of times!
 
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Amin
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I was playing around with several starting conditions and openings yesterday on the board and I think you are on the right track with the idea of "Lannister's Retribution" in turn 2. Proper use of Gregor Clegane + attacking (or better yet supporting and thus less vulnerable to counter attack) siege engines on turn 2 might be the way to go. Back to the drawing board time arrrh
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Sabzevarian wrote:
Proper use of Gregor Clegane + attacking (or better yet supporting and thus less vulnerable to counter attack) siege engines on turn 2 might be the way to go.


However, support from Lannisport could be cut by a raid in Riverrun. And you cannot use the Raven to change support in Lannisport to attack +0, because you need it to defend the ship(s).
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neko flying
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The problem with Lannister's Retribution is that when you see Greyjoy playing two March tokens on Greywater Watch and Pyke, you still don't know if he is going to try an attack on Riverrun.

So a possibile Lannister opening might be:
- ship raid
- Footman Stoney Sept march +1
- Footman + Knight Lannisport support +1

If Greyjoy marches his fleet, change the ship's order to defense +2.

If Greyjoy plays a support on his fleet and two march orders, use the raven to change the Lannisport order into Muster, then march into Riverrun with the footman in Stoney Sept. If Riverrun is taken by Greyjoy, retreat into Seagard (or Harrenhal), and muster a catapult in Lannisport. Otherwise, muster ships and/or a knight in Lannisport.

This looks like a weak opening, but it is the safest, probably: as long as Lannister keeps Ser Gregor and a Siege Engine, Greyjoy should stay put.
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Amin
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flying_neko wrote:
The problem with Lannister's Retribution is that when you see Greyjoy playing two March tokens on Greywater Watch and Pyke, you still don't know if he is going to try an attack on Riverrun.

So a possibile Lannister opening might be:
- ship raid
- Footman Stoney Sept march +1
- Footman + Knight Lannisport support +1

If Greyjoy marches his fleet, change the ship's order to defense +2.

If Greyjoy plays a support on his fleet and two march orders, use the raven to change the Lannisport order into Muster, then march into Riverrun with the footman in Stoney Sept. If Riverrun is taken by Greyjoy, retreat into Seagard (or Harrenhal), and muster a catapult in Lannisport. Otherwise, muster ships and/or a knight in Lannisport.

This looks like a weak opening, but it is the safest, probably: as long as Lannister keeps Ser Gregor and a Siege Engine, Greyjoy should stay put.


Nice start-up thumbsup

This is a very versatile opening, if facing an aggressive Greyjoy. There are better Lannister opening moves if Greyjoy can be negotiated with (making this appear weak as you said), but we are specifically considering the problem of a belligerent 1st turn Greyjoy.

Situation 1: Greyjoy goes with the +0 march on the ship. You should be able to hold onto Riverrun (Ser Kevan beats any card thrown at him). You can save your ship with the Hound if facing battle at sea. [latest edit - uh oh, Ser Kevan will not work on defence here. If Greyjoy comes in the knight and the footman, he could still win if using both Balon + the sword. However, at least that prevents the sword from being used at sea that same turn]

One question here: if you are bested at sea, should you retreat to port or to the Sunset Sea? I am thinking Sunset Sea might not be a bad option, because you can still raid Greyjoy's ships, deny Greyjoy that extra ocean to muster into and can potentially be supported by Stark and/or Tyrell (if Greyjoy is beating on Lannister, throwing a support from their ships is the easiest way to help prop Lannister up). If the naval buildup and battle continues over time, holding onto Sunset Sea might be a big advantage.

Situation 2: Greyjoy plays the 2 march orders on his land troops. You are right, you can't tell what he is doing right away. Forcing a muster in Lannisport seems like the right way to go, with a second turn counterattack.

Another similar opening move I saw from someone else just gave up on Riverrun in situation 2 and moved Stoney Sept's footman directly to Harrenhal. Your alternative may place you in the same result (footman in Harrenhal) but with an exchange of cards. I'm not sure which option is better here. Though under your opening move, if Greyjoy was not really planning to go to Riverrun after all or changes his mind, then you get to hold onto Riverrun at the end of turn 1.
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Amin
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flying_neko wrote:
Sabzevarian wrote:
Proper use of Gregor Clegane + attacking (or better yet supporting and thus less vulnerable to counter attack) siege engines on turn 2 might be the way to go.


However, support from Lannisport could be cut by a raid in Riverrun. And you cannot use the Raven to change support in Lannisport to attack +0, because you need it to defend the ship(s).


True. I am just thinking in general that if you (happen to) end up with a situation with an adjacent surviving support (i.e. attacking from Lannisport with support from Stoney Sept) then you could use the single march order to split off your siege engine into the supporting area while attacking with the rest of the force. Not something restricted to Lannister strategy, but just how I usually try to use siege engines, while keeping them away from the immediate front lines.
 
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Steven
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Interesting strategies! This was a very good read and pretty sound advice, because my first game of GoT is coming up in a few weeks.

However... I am wondering how much of this potential opening is ignoring the other players? Would this early conflict allow Baratheon to expand mostly unchecked if Stark hits Greyjoy? Would Tyrell, knowing you just wasted your best cards on a bloodbath in Riverrun, aggressively expand in your direction?

I guess what I am saying: would it just benefit Greyjoy and Lannister to just talk about dividing territory instead of throwing their best men and cards into the meatgrinder?
 
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SW_Cygnus wrote:
Would it just benefit Greyjoy and Lannister to just talk about dividing territory instead of throwing their best men and cards into the meatgrinder?


It is almost always the better strategy for both. But this still leaves the possibility for backstabbing: Lannister needs to play orders that can be fixed with the Raven to counter a surprise attack from Greyjoy. Also, some players just refuse to have a truce, or might obtain better terms from other players.
 
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joshsmith80 wrote:
I still feel that ships are the most useful way to keep Greyjoy honest. In fact, I use more ships than my opponents ever have in all forms of the game. Once you build your fleet up enough you can completely sever all of your neighbouring opponents options!


I agree that ships are crucial in all editions of the game. However, it will be difficult to win the naval buildup & battle if Greyjoy takes and holds onto Riverrun. They have access to more muster points and (potentially) more supply than you. They can also outflank you into Sunset Sea and surround you with ships.

Diplomacy is vitally important for Lannister, more important than any other faction. However, that varies with each game - these start orders hopefully put you in a decent position so you are not immediately crushed by a belligerent Greyjoy. If Lannister is no longer a pushover in a particular gaming group, then Greyjoy might be more willing to make deals in future sessions.

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http://boardgamegeek.com/article/8249317#8249317 i discussed this:


"2nd ed helps with 1 greyjoy ship in port(i think) and TOB cards which eliminate pretermined close-wins.
thankfully greyjoy cant consolidate more boats turn 1, but lanister can.


There are new problems however:
victarion greyjoy:3str: +1 for each one of your ships.
balon greyjoy:2str:opponent card worth 0str
(easier to claim golden sound, which leads to riverrun-supported attack from ironmans bay which also helps hold golden sound)

lanisters cards dont seem as good in comparison.

theorycrafting:
-----------------------------
you most likely win golden sound turn 1 by using both marches on your boats and keeping one in your sea. he should not retreat to his port, so he can raid you(assuming he lives). win the sea battle by about 1.5(fiefdom =.5), so you may lose with TOB giving him +2 on you.

conclusion is that you (most likely) get the sea, and can hold it. a sunset sea boat will raid your support, so that is the next hurdle.

you cant abandon the seas or lanister may claim them. wait till you can muster more ships, then send some to sunset sea. he will be able to consolidate more armies from his capital, while you cannot, so pray for the muster (or maybe clash of kings) card. Thats as far as theory crafting can go.


OR

(risky plan)if he pushes for riverrun, you win unless he knows the only counter to your balon card is his kevan. otherwise its only a narrow victory which will be ruined by the TOB cards. however, he wont be able to use swords and you can retreat safely if it comes up.
(with the 2 marches on your non-boats. 4armys+1.5 vs 5 lanister. on land, with kevan vs balon possible, the housecards are basically a tie. almost 50/50 chance of winning which isnt so good. )

If he musters turn1-capital, you will gain area however, his land counterattack will defeat you unless a muster card comes up.

------------------------------------------------

the answer is still that you need a shrewd lanister who has studied this stuff, or greyjoy will win.
 
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baron vendredi
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I posted some of my thoughts on the Lannister opening and general strategies on the FFG forums here: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?e... under "vendredi".

Like flying_nekos, I think the siege tower + G. Clegane opening is the best option for Lannister (which I like to call "Riverrun or Bust") if you face an early game aggressive Greyjoy, but I do agree the optimum strategy is to try and forge some sort of diplomatic treaty, then strike west for Cracklaw point and maybe take even the Vale of Arryn.

I feel House Lannister's key strength is their access to Stoney Sept and the Blackwater - from these two regions House Lannister can support nearly every conflict in the Southlands between Baratheon, Tyrell, and Martell - support that's crucial especially to break the Baratheon stranglehold on the coast.


echephron wrote:
lanisters cards dont seem as good in comparison.

I disagree here. I actually think Greyjoy has a fairly overrated deck - all their cards are only good on the offensive and dismal on the defensive. Aeron and Balon are good wild cards, but the remainder are lackluster - Euron is a typical 4 pt card, Victarion only gets the bonus on the offence, Asha only is good without support while Theon only works on castles, and Cleftjaw is just mediocre.
Since Lannister generally goes first, Greyjoy can rarely be on the offensive against Lannister, and since Lannister gets the Raven they can change orders reactively.

In contrast, the Lions are terrifically focused and have four solid cards. Tywin gives you power, Kevan turns footmen heavy support armies into surprise strikers, Tyrion is a good wild, the Hound will save any army in the face of certain defeat, and Gregor is a terrifying offensive powerhouse. Only Jaime and Cersei are rather sub-par. In a throwdown I'd always bet on Lannister.
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Amin
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Hello Vendredi. I am copying your post there to keep a record of it here. Posts and whole forums at FFG are notorious for disappearing over time, whereas this site is good for keeping logs.

I think the key difference between your approach and Neko's is that the footman is going to Harrenhall on turn 1 directly, rather than Riverrun. I guess if you know for sure that Greyjoy is going to go for Riverrun on turn 1, then this is the safer option, but otherwise, isn't that a suboptimal move? I know either of these moves are sub-optimal, but what is the reason for going for Harrenhall directly? Why not force Greyjoy to use some of its better cards at Rivverrun?

One issue might be if that Greyjoy attacks via both land and sea on the first turn, you only have one card (The Hound) that can prevent casualties and you might not be able to save both ship and footman?

baron vendredi wrote:
Here is my proposed: "Riverrun or Bust" Lannister opening:

1. March -1 for your starting ship. If a march shows up on the Iron Fleet, then you can retreat to the Port at Lannisport, where you can continually raid any attempt at Greyjoy fleet support with impunity. If Greyjoy doesn't try to smash the Lannister fleet, then you can continually raid their ship support and force them to split up if they want to do something.

If a March doesn't show up on the Iron Fleet, use the Raven to change the fleet action to raid to counter any Greyjoy attempts at raiding or support.

2. Move the footman from Stoney Sept to Harrenhal.

3. Special Order consolidate in Lannisport and muster another knight (or siege tower if you want Riverrun for sure!).

You are ahead of Greyjoy in total strength even if a mustering comes up and can raid any attempt at support from the sea with your navy. Greyjoy likely has access to very few special orders as well if he's holding out for Damphair and won't be likely to rise on the Court track if a Clash comes up.

4a. (no muster drawn) Play Special March +1 in Lannisport, Raid in the sea, and Special Raid in Harrenhal (to remove any defence orders). Switch one of the Raids using the Raven with a Special Support +1 order if you can afford it (either the ship or the footman). With a +1 March Knight/Knight/Footman in Lannisport, a Footman/Ship +1 Support, you have 8 strength. If you were gutsy and went for the Siege Tower, you have 10! Even if somehow you cannot place a support, you have 6 (8) and should be able to deny at least some ship support to Greyjoy land forces (even if you had to hole up in port you should be able to raid the surrounding sea), who can at best manage 3 (the Knight/Footman stack) + 1 (another Footman) +1 (if he split his ships, but this may not be likely) +1 (Valyrian) = 6, which is still beatable if you took the Siege Tower option. Play Gregor Clegane; Greyjoy's best defenders cannot avoid all casualties and an early game bloodying will give you the edge you need for further battles.

4b. (muster) You have even more options here. Add another ship and change the Footman in Lannisport to a third Knight, and muster another Footman in Harrenhal or upgrade to Siege Tower. Either way you have an overwhelming force that can take Riverrun. Note that if a muster was drawn, Greyjoy may decide to go after Lannisport if he has control of the sea, but if you were able to crush Riverrun, retaking Lannisport and bloodying the remaining Greyjoy forces even further is easily doable. This may be costly though if Greyjoy forced your ship into port earlier and thus take the ship from you, but hey, no war is ever completely free from risk.

You may want to use Tywin for Riverrun and save Gregor Clegane for retaking Lannisport, but I'd rather have the guaranteed casualties on Riverrun and bet that Greyjoy will likely ask for some breathing room.

I feel this opening has the fewest number of holes in it, but let me know if I've missed anything. Trying to hold both Lannisport and take Riverrun at the same time is tricky but I think it's still doable for the Lannisters. Greyjoy cannot use any special orders on turn 1 (at least if you're playing five players), so they definitely cannot out-muster you at the opening.

I feel G. Clegane is the best leader for an early battle against Greyjoy; taking one or two units off Greyjoy early is needed to blunt his bite and teach him not to mess with the lions, although you may prefer the power tokens afforded by Tywin, or alternately, you may want to go Footman heavy and use Kevan so as not to burn your best leaders early. The key again behind the strategy is to exploit the Messenger Raven, Special Orders, plus the fact Lannister acts first.



But again, this strategy is only if you want Riverrun and must have it early. Personally I feel Riverrun makes a better bargaining chip with either Stark or Greyjoy. Lannister can easily surround Riverrun at any time and apply some serious pressure on the holder in favour of the other northern power, so using it as a bargaining chip can make either northern player play a little nicer.
 
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Magnus Carlsson
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I have one idea that I have not been able to play test yet. So whats better then getting opinions right here?

Assumptions: Lannister moves before Greyjoy, Lannister has the raven, Greyjoy has no star orders

Main idea:
To lure Greyjoy in to Riverrun on turn 1 and retaliate directly.
How:
If Lannister place all three March orders, -1 on the ship, +0 on Lannisport and +1 on Stoney sept you will force Greyjoy to make his move first.
Ok, if Lannister senses a threat for it's ship, or if Greyjoy only placed one march order you can switch it to a raid/defense +2, even a support +1 might be useful.
The ship will otherwise be a no-op, then you move Lannisport troops into Stoney sept. By now Greyjoy would be forced to have shown it's intentions as he only has two march orders available.
For the last march order Lannister attack from Stoney sept with the needed power. He has Knight + 2 Footman, with the Kevin card that would make 6 + 1 for the March.

Greyjoy can't use the Victarion card as it's only available for attack (and he probably wont waste it in defense). The Balon card allows him a +2 advantage and with the blade Lannister really needs to be 4 ahead of Greyjoy.

What happens next?
Well a muster would be nice... allowing Lannister two muster 2+2 or even 2+2+1 if you can divert forces to Harrenthal without risking defeat.

By the way, did I mention that I do like to gamble a little. Often I get caught, but sometimes doing the unexpected would give you nice rewards.
 
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baron vendredi
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Sabzevarian wrote:
I know either of these moves are sub-optimal, but what is the reason for going for Harrenhall directly? Why not force Greyjoy to use some of its better cards at Rivverrun?

One issue might be if that Greyjoy attacks via both land and sea on the first turn, you only have one card (The Hound) that can prevent casualties and you might not be able to save both ship and footman?


This is why I suggest leaving a March -1 on the ship, and only swapping with the Raven if Greyjoy is *not* attacking via sea. Since you go first, you can safely retreat to port/Sunset Sea if it looks like a sea attack is imminent. If Greyjoy takes the Golden Sound you can still pressure him with raids, and taking the Golden Sound early means he will have to split his fleet.

I only recommend this play if all your diplomatic overtures to Greyjoy are rebuffed. This is the opening you use if Greyjoy announces on turn 1 he's out for Riverrun and you're not going to convince him otherwise. I'm assuming, obviously, that you can get a good gauge of whether or not Greyjoy will contest Riverrun, but such are the risks of war. If Greyjoy doesn't want to fight for Riverrun, skip this opening and do something else. I like to grab Riverrun and Harrenhal early.

For this strategy, I prefer to take Harrenhal because it's a "free" muster point that will still support/raid Riverrun. Since Greyjoy doesn't get any special orders you can keep pace with his production even if a muster comes up with the Special Consolidate order, and your forces will have better position and initiative. I feel it's better to build up and deal a devastating blow on turn 2 rather than gamble on turn 1.

The idea is to deal Greyjoy a crushing blow and negotiate a settlement; Lannister will have a hard time taking the Greyjoy castles in the short term and I feel they're best reserved for a last sprint backstab. In the larger strategic picture, Harrenhal is *the* centre of the map - from Harrenhal you can affect Riverrun (Greyjoy's entry into the south), Cracklaw Point (Baratheon access to the North, Stark access to the South, and your access to the Vale of Arryn), the Blackwater (centre support location for almost all significant southern battles - Lannister should endeavour to control this). Moving the Footman to Harrenhal is an opening I find fulfills multiple uses - it buffers Riverrun against Greyjoy and puts you into a position to have leverage on the southern wars.
 
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Quote:
I feel it's better to build up and deal a devastating blow on turn 2 rather than gamble on turn 1.


Agreed.


I am hesitant to give up Golden Sound without a fight. If you are going straight for Harrenhall rather than Riverrun in this situation, why not hold your ground at sea and hopefully force Greyjoy to use a good card?

 
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baron vendredi
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I'm personally more hesitant to give up the Hound early. Remember, you're not getting him back until you work through the rest of the deck, which is likely a while.

Sure, you can make Greyjoy spend another card - but if you're going with this strategy you'll crush him at Riverrun regardless. And remember, the ultimate goal of the strategy is to force Greyjoy to rethink an anti-Lannister strategy. Spending the Hound and forcing the ironborn to burn through their cards is a good idea - if you're trying to crush Greyjoy - which will simply burn through your resources and leave you vulnerable to any combination of Stark, Tyrell, and Baratheon.

But I feel it's in your better long interest to leave the border set at Riverrun (possibly Seagard even, if you feel you can negotiate it from Greyjoy) so you can start claiming castles and providing diplomatic leverage in the south - and with the massive brawl the south is, it's much handier to save the Hound for a situation where you really need him.

Plus, if you retreat to port, it's no big problem to continually raid Greyjoy's support. And if you cede the Golden Sound without the fight, there's a big temptation on Greyjoy's part to split his starting fleet in half so he has a wider range of motion. On a later turn you can mass a fleet in Lannisport and retake the Golden Sound without difficulty.

Still, I do see your argument. If Greyjoy is really belligerent and you want to do Stark a favour, forcing Greyjoy to commit more leaders will make it somewhat more easier for the Stark player to apply pressure to Greyjoy. And even with the 2 strength garrison, Lannisport is awfully vulnerable to a Greyjoy offensive due to it's proximity to their waters.
 
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baronvendredi wrote:
I'm personally more hesitant to give up the Hound early. Remember, you're not getting him back until you work through the rest of the deck, which is likely a while.


Good point, I wish Lannister had at least one other card with a fortification icon. Seems like there are less cards with forts in this edition, compared to the Clash of Kings cards and possible 1st edition cards.

If Greyjoy can be convinced of the error of his ways, then that's good. However, if Greyjoy is gunning for you from turn 1, he may not be the mood to change that strategy. Even a bloody nose on turn 2 may make him more aggressive rather than less (even though it was in self defence!).

Yes, it is ideal for both factions to avoid fighting from turn 1, but if Greyjoy is committed to it, there is not much you can do but fight back (and seek 3rd party support). I'm specifically trying to think of the worst case scenarios here, rather than other games where there is some sort of diplomatic agreement.

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Still, I do see your argument. If Greyjoy is really belligerent and you want to do Stark a favour, forcing Greyjoy to commit more leaders will make it somewhat more easier for the Stark player to apply pressure to Greyjoy. And even with the 2 strength garrison, Lannisport is awfully vulnerable to a Greyjoy offensive due to it's proximity to their waters.


In an early brawl with Greyjoy, sea control will be crucial, even with ports balancing that. So that is why I'm hesitant to give up Golden Sound without a fight - if a muster comes up after turn 1, Grejoy can pop out a 2 ships (maybe a third in Sunset Sea)) and with that circle of growing support even 3 ships in Lannisport would have trouble breaking out of port (and would be quite vulnerable). If a muster doesn't come up, then you are in a better situation?

I am thinking that if you do march -1 away from Golden Sound, then perhaps moving to Sunset Sea is the better option? You can still raid from that area and potentially be supported by Tyrell and/or Stark ships, particularly if you paint yourself as the victim of Greyjoy aggression.

 
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baron vendredi
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Sunset Sea sounds like a better and better idea, actually, and instead you can muster a fleet in Lannisport, I suppose. It does run the risk of spreading your fleet, but Lannister doesn't really rely on ship support for land attack, so a ship in Sunset Sea is well positioned to help defend the coast.

If a muster comes up and you successfully complete the opening and land two or three casualties on Greyjoy with Clegane, you'll be somewhat ahead. Greyjoy has to split his attention between ships and land forces, and ships cannot take castles after all.
And if there's no Clash of Kings you'll go first in the turn order and still be able to lay down Special Consolidate orders to build.

The naturally ally in this situation is obviously Stark; they'll be feeling pressured by any Greyjoy naval presence as well. You can easily promise Flint's Finger or Seagard (maybe both) as a reward for helping contain Greyjoy.

Thinking ahead a little: from Riverrun, you threaten Seagard and have the opportunity to cause more Greyjoy casualties. His ships mean that he can easily swoop in and take Riverrun, but if he does so he gets caught between the hammer at Seagard and the anvil at Lannisport. In a battle of attrition you can stay ahead so long as you stay high enough on the Raven track to afford extra Special Consolidates and stay ahead of Greyjoy on the turn order. It's a tight power situation, but Greyjoy is facing the same constraint if he wants to hold the Valyrian steel blade.

In the absolutely worst case Stark doesn't help, and Greyjoy and Lannister both go down fighting and lose the game. In which case tactically speaking the situation is futile; there's absolutely nothing you can do about it (aside from making sure Greyjoy doesn't win either!).
If no diplomatic agreements happen for either Greyjoy or Lannister, neither of them can win. But that's how it works for all other players as well.
 
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Amin
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It may take a game or two of such outcomes within a gaming group to drive that point forward. And one needs to have these strategies available (I'm glad we are working on them) to deter an early Grejoy attack. Lannister is the most likely to be crushed, in all versions of this game, if they are not played well out from the get-go.
 
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Cheza Moonmaiden
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flying_neko wrote:
If Greyjoy wants to take Riverrun on turn 1, he can do it by playing:

Greyjoy's staggered attack on Riverrun
- fleet support +0
- Greywater's Watch march -1 to Pyke,
- Pyke march +0 all units (1 knight 2 footmen) to Riverrun.

If Lannister counters with

Lannister tries to take and hold Riverrun
- ship raids Greyjoy fleet (changed with raven from defense +2)
- Footman Stoney Sept support +1
- Footman + Knight Lannisport march +1 to Riverrun

Lannister enters first Riverrun, has to defend.
Lannister: 2 Footmen + 1 knight + 1 support = 5 strength
Greyjoy: 2 Footmen + 1 knight + Valyrian blade = 5 strength
=> Greyjoy certainly wins if he plays Euron. However, any non-staggered attack from Greyjoy can be countered with this move by Lannister if Tywin is played.

Doesn't work for the Lannisters, because he can play Aeron during the first fight. In this way, he can always switch to Balon, if the Lennisters play Tywin or Clegane. Or he could switch to Euron. In this case, the Lannisters would lose a unit and your second turn would look even worse for the Lannisters. Or he could simply lose the fight and retreat to Seaguard or any other place. In that case, the Lannisters would have gained nothing, but lost a house card with a high strength value, just to hold Riverruin for 1 round.

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If Lannister has to retreat, he can retreat to Seagard. Outcome:
Greyjoy Knight + 2 footmen in Riverrun
Lannister Knight + 2 footmen in Seagard
Things look grim for both players.

As already mentioned, Seaguard would have been under Greyjoy's command before the battle begins at Riverruin, so the Lennisters can't retreat to Seagard.

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Play the raven to muster a catapult in Lannisport. Next turn, if Lannister is still higher on the Iron Throne track (has initiative):

In this way, I wouldn't conquer Riverruin with all my troops, but with just a single unit. In this way, I profit from any recruit westeros card and it still gives me the option for my own retribution strike at Riverruin.

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Lannister plays Ser Gregor. Greyjoy has no tower cards. The Greyjoy army is annihilated.

Greyjoy have two cards with tower symbols.
 
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