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Subject: Sensors test on an enemy ship rss

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David Tinney
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There is a science mission, the name of which escapes me now, that requires a level 15 sensor test on an enemy ship in order to begin diplomatic relations and earn a victory point. When this test is performed, is it treated as an opposed sensor test in which the enemy ship may play cards to boost its shields and then roll a die? Is it instead treated as a one sided system test as if the enemy ship were a nebula or a star?

Edited for grammer

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Željan Sudeta
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We played as opposed system test so the opponent can play command card to boost his/her sensors.
 
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Pete aka The Masked Minstrel
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We treated it as a static test vs sensors 15.
 
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Frank Feldmann SoFrankly
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Okay, I haven't played in a few weeks, but it seems to me that if it says you have to beat sensors 15, than it's not an opposed test. An opposed test uses your opponents setting, not a predetermined number.
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Drew Gormley
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It, similar to a transporter action done on an enemy ship, would be an unopposed test. The 'defender' may play a card, but not role.
 
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Jeff Dunford
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squallgoku wrote:
We treated it as a static test vs sensors 15.


^^ this.

If it said "perform an opposed sensor test on an enemy ship", then it would be a matter of having higher sensors than an opposing ship on the same tile. But since it says "level 15 sensors test", it implies it's static. Otherwise, what would "level 15" mean? It seems unreasonable to require that you exceed an opponent's ship's sensors by 15 (e.g. 23 vs 8) for only 1 VP. Cost/reward ratios aren't particularly balanced in this game, but it seems more reasonable that seeking out a ship to perform a (static) level 15 sensors test is approximately equivalent to seeking out a particular type of space tile (e.g. star or nebula or planet) for a similar test (level 12 or 20, depending on the rarity of the type of region) for 1 VP.

*edit* Of course, your opponent can still play a card to reduce your sensors to prevent you from reaching a sensors value of 15.
 
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Paul DeStefano
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Cougar_Cro wrote:
We played as opposed system test so the opponent can play command card to boost his/her sensors.


But sensors are not used as defense in any situation. If anything, it would be shields.
 
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Matt Smith
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Perhaps Cougar_Cro doesn't know the opponent can still play a card, even when it's not an opposed test. A card like Sensor Pulse (-5 to opponent ship's Sensors) would be a good one to use in this situation.
 
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David Tinney
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Thank you all for your input. It seems the consensus is that this sort of test on an enemy ship would be treated as a regular unopposed test.
 
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Justin
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I have to disagree. I think it is sensors vs shields, since you are seeing if you can penetrate their shields with your sensors, as if you were kidnapping a crew member. It only makes sense thematically, a Klingon ship in front of you, raise shields, they try to mess with your systems, it's not like you would have a sensor battle, it's supposed to be an attack!
 
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Ilias Sellountos
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To me it is clear that it is a static 15 sensor test. The target ship's systems do not come into play and the opponent does not roll a die. Command cards can always be played by both players regardless of whether s system test is opposed or static.
 
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Justin
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I don't understand why everyone thinks this is an unopposed sensors test... It doesn't make sense! It's an attack! Both players should roll dice, and it's sensors vs shields. Why would you do unopposed ANYTHING against an enemy ship? Unopposed are for everything EXCEPT enemy ships.
 
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David Tinney
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My gut tells me to agree with you MrSumOne, but I then can't explain why they set a value of 15 for the aggressor's sensors to beat if the defender's shields enter into it somehow.
 
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Keith Anderson
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MrSumOne wrote:
I don't understand why everyone thinks this is an unopposed sensors test... It doesn't make sense! It's an attack! Both players should roll dice, and it's sensors vs shields. Why would you do unopposed ANYTHING against an enemy ship? Unopposed are for everything EXCEPT enemy ships.


Are we talking about the Diplomatic Contact card in the Science Deck with no mention of attack or combat?

edit as roll is against 15, it is whether the opponent gets a die roll that is in question.
 
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Mike Spartz
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MrSumOne wrote:
I don't understand why everyone thinks this is an unopposed sensors test... It doesn't make sense! It's an attack! Both players should roll dice, and it's sensors vs shields. Why would you do unopposed ANYTHING against an enemy ship? Unopposed are for everything EXCEPT enemy ships.


Because on page 9 of the manual the game defines an opposed system test as a test against another ships system. The card in question specifically states you are testing against a generic number of 15; therefore you are not testing against the enemy ship's systems.

If it is an opposed test the card says opposed test of X system vs Y system. It is always clearly defined.

Whatever thematics you think are appropriate really has nothing to do with this. the text on the card is very clear.
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Justin
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Ok, I agree with the mission. But I remember a federation command or combat card that makes you do a sensors test, (I forget the name right now ) in that case it's vs. shields, right?

edit: I found the card - Masterful Bluff. Make an opposed sensor test with one enemy ship in the combat. That's vs. shields, right?
 
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David Tinney
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GamePlayer wrote:
MrSumOne wrote:
I don't understand why everyone thinks this is an unopposed sensors test... It doesn't make sense! It's an attack! Both players should roll dice, and it's sensors vs shields. Why would you do unopposed ANYTHING against an enemy ship? Unopposed are for everything EXCEPT enemy ships.


Are we talking about the Diplomatic Contact card in the Science Deck with no mention of attack or combat?

edit as roll is against 15, it is whether the opponent gets a die roll that is in question.


Precisely.
 
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Ilias Sellountos
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MrSumOne wrote:
Make an opposed sensor test with one enemy ship in the combat. That's vs. shields, right?


I am not sure where you get the shields. The text clearly says it is an opposed sensor test so it is sensors vs. sensors.

Sensors vs. shields applies specifically to trasporter actions on enemy ships, it is not a generic rule whenever a sensor test occurs that involves enemy ships.
 
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Justin
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Shemar wrote:

I am not sure where you get the shields. The text clearly says it is an opposed sensor test so it is sensors vs. sensors.

Sensors vs. shields applies specifically to trasporter actions on enemy ships, it is not a generic rule whenever a sensor test occurs that involves enemy ships.


Well, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me thematically, and I don't see any rule that says as such. The wording "opposed sensors test", or "sensors test against an enemy ship" is used for transporter actions in the rule book (page 21), so I don't see why one is vs shields, and the other is vs sensors...
 
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Ilias Sellountos
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Except the rules say nothing of the sort. They say:

Quote:
... but you must first succeed at a Sensor test. The Level of the test is equal to the Shields Rating of the enemy ship.


There is no mention whatsoever about opposed test or test against an enemy ship. This is a very specific rule about transporter actions where the target is an enemy ship. It is not even an opposed test. And yet somehow it seems logical to you to take that and blanket apply it to all opposed sensor tests.

Thematically as well, it makes perfect sense. The Masterful Bluff could involve tricking the opponenst sensors to see more enemies or in some other way deceiving them, so it would clearly be a sensor vs. sensor test, while a transporter action would involve the bypass of the enemy ship's shilds to succeed so it makes sense the shields define the difficulty level.
 
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Justin
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Shemar wrote:
Except the rules say nothing of the sort. They say:

Quote:
... but you must first succeed at a Sensor test. The Level of the test is equal to the Shields Rating of the enemy ship.


There is no mention whatsoever about opposed test or test against an enemy ship. This is a very specific rule about transporter actions where the target is an enemy ship. It is not even an opposed test. And yet somehow it seems logical to you to take that and blanket apply it to all opposed sensor tests.

Thematically as well, it makes perfect sense. The Masterful Bluff could involve tricking the opponenst sensors to see more enemies or in some other way deceiving them, so it would clearly be a sensor vs. sensor test, while a transporter action would involve the bypass of the enemy ship's shilds to succeed so it makes sense the shields define the difficulty level.


Well really, it doesn't specifically say that it's a sensors vs sensors test either, unless I'm missing some other rule in the book. So I guess there's no real ruling on if it's vs shields or vs sensors. I would like an official ruling before I change how we've been playing.

PS: Don't be so angry sounding!
 
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Michael Cox
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I need to read the cards, etc and will try to post an answer tonight. Sorry for the delay. Sometimes BGG doesn't show all my subscriptions.
 
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Jeff Dunford
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MrSumOne wrote:
Well really, it doesn't specifically say that it's a sensors vs sensors test either, unless I'm missing some other rule in the book. So I guess there's no real ruling on if it's vs shields or vs sensors. I would like an official ruling before I change how we've been playing.


I was just double-checking the rules on opposed systems tests and transporter actions. On page 9, there is a specific example of an opposed sensors test (see blue text). It is sensors vs. sensors (no shields or other systems involved).

Star Trek: Fleet Captains rule book wrote:
Example: The U.S.S. Yeager is attempting to use the Sensor Overload Command Card against the I.K.S. Bortas. This card requires an Opposed Sensors Test. The Yeager currently has Sensors 6. The Bortas has Sensors 7 and it has a Crew Card assigned to it that adds +3 Sensors. To improve his odds, the Federation Player plays an "Emergency Power" Command Card (+2 to any System). The Federation player rolls one die and gets a 4, so his total on the test is 12. The Klingon player rolls a 1 for a total of 11. The Yeager has the higher total, so the Bortas suffers the effect of the Sensor Overload.


QED
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Ilias Sellountos
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MrSumOne wrote:
PS: Don't be so angry sounding! :p


Haha, sorry I had just spent 10 minutes trying to find your rules 'quotes', reading and re-reading the same rules section, before I realized you were probably going by memory/assumption.

In any case, my point is that the only mention of a sensors vs. shields test is in that specific section for Transporter actions, which is not even an opposed test. If a card says "do an opposed engines test" you would not go trying to figure out "vs. what?" it would be self evidently engines vs. engines. It is the same with sensors. If ther rules/cards say opposed A test, it is A vs. A. In any other case the rules/cards will say opposed A vs. B test. Even if it said "opposed weapons test" it would not be weapons vs. shields, it would be weapons vs. weapons.
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Justin
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Ah, thanks for clarifying!
 
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