Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
28 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Mansions of Madness» Forums » Variants

Subject: Life Tokens Variant rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Yuriy Matuhno
Ukraine
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Let's say, team starts with "n" life tokens.

Whenever an investigator is reduced to 0 health, his miniature is put on it's side, and 1 life token is discarded. As a result of uncounsciosness, he takes 1 Horror and shuffles all his items, dropping one of them in his space at random.

And there is where ways splits:
1)Other investigators must spend an action point to help uncouscious investigator get up. He regains half of his health. At the end of every keeper phase 1 life token is discard for each uncouscious investigator.

2)At the end of every keeper phase each uncouscious investigator gets up with something like 1/3 of his health automatically. This way obviously requires to have less initial life tokens than previous.


If investigators ran out of life tokens and have someone reduced to 0 health - this person dies and eliminated from the game.

For the objectives which require players to be killed, immediately after objective has been revealed, convert all remaining life tokens to health in something like 2:1 or 1.5:1 or even 1:1 health-to-life token proportion. Investigators decide who regaims how much health from this pool.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris J Davis
United Kingdom
London
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Overtext pending moderation...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
What is the point of this variant? Also, doesn't it make things hugely easier for the investigators?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Yuriy Matuhno
Ukraine
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The point is replacing investigator in such environment(in my opinion) is SHIT, and sometimes insta death could be too harsh.

Not, it doesn't.
Also, amount of initial life tokens is "n", which can be decided by keeper. So if he feels it's too much, he can lower it.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel B
msg tools
mbmb
I quite like this variant idea. It adds a new strategy to the investigator role and makes splitting up a bigger issue, especially with the idea of actions to resuscitate. I may try this and let you know how the group react next time we get to play.

Thanks zombie
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Roberta Yang
msg tools
TrueLolzor wrote:
and sometimes insta death could be too harsh.

Indeed, it is far too harsh that the Keeper can instantly kill an Investigator with a single attack... assuming that the Keeper has already reduced that Investigator to low health with previous attacks and the Investigator has succeeded neither in escaping from the monsters attacking them nor in healing themselves from their previous damage. Wait a moment, exactly what part of this is "insta"?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mooseulie Ferenczy
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
salty53 wrote:
TrueLolzor wrote:
and sometimes insta death could be too harsh.

Indeed, it is far too harsh that the Keeper can instantly kill an Investigator with a single attack... assuming that the Keeper has already reduced that Investigator to low health with previous attacks and the Investigator has succeeded neither in escaping from the monsters attacking them nor in healing themselves from their previous damage. Wait a moment, exactly what part of this is "insta"?

I believe he is talking about a mental trauma that can kill an investigator at 0 sanity.

I'm not really a fan of this variant. It replaces one annoying form of death for another. Sometimes starting with a new character is preferred because it allows a player to pick a better character for the scenario at hand.
Also, players get double-penalized for dying by monster attacks. They lose one life for dying to the monster and then the keeper's turn immediately ends, costing them an additional life and the opportunity to be resuscitated. And a player is still penalized for instant deaths if they go last because a keeper can just hit them with the aforementioned trauma and again deny them the extra life token and the health and they get to come back with 0 sanity so the keeper can still hit them with all sorts of trauma.
I don't really see what this variant is meant to accomplish.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Roberta Yang
msg tools
j0frenzy wrote:
I believe he is talking about a mental trauma that can kill an investigator at 0 sanity.

That would be really relevant except:

1) The Keeper still needs to drain their Sanity to 0, so it's still not in any way "insta", and

2) This variant only triggers when "an Investigator is reduced to 0 health", so The Only Way Out is one of the only ways an Investigator can be killed that this variant doesn't affect at all. (Which is a good thing, because resurrecting Investigators by giving them extra Health isn't very meaningful when they already had full Health when they died.)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mooseulie Ferenczy
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
salty53 wrote:
j0frenzy wrote:
I believe he is talking about a mental trauma that can kill an investigator at 0 sanity.

That would be really relevant except:

1) The Keeper still needs to drain their Sanity to 0, so it's still not in any way "insta", and

2) This variant only triggers when "an Investigator is reduced to 0 health", so The Only Way Out is one of the only ways an Investigator can be killed that this variant doesn't affect at all. (Which is a good thing, because resurrecting Investigators by giving them extra Health isn't very meaningful when they already had full Health when they died.)

I assumed all death in this variant would reduce a player to 0 health so everyone is stuck with the character they picked for the entire game or until they run out of lives and are eliminated. Honestly, the biggest balance for this is how many life tokens the investigators are given. Too few and it benefits and already OP keeper. Too many and death becomes a joke.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Yuriy Matuhno
Ukraine
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
1) Additional life token is not discarded at the end of the keeper phase, if investigator died during that keeper phase.

2) By insta-death I meant death as complete elimination from the game(I'm playing with that).

3) Receiveing new investigator when your previous dies is just unthematic and stupid. And it prohibits "lol who cares what happens I'm going to receive another one anyway" kind of play.

4) Keeper may additionally gain n amount of threat when investigator get's decapitated. Don't forget that decapitated players are getting horror. You may add 1 horror to each decapitated investigator at the end of every keeper phase(again, skipping the one he got decapped).

5) Also, a funny note, if you playing in the way where investigators need other's to help em get up, you may give to decapped invests 1 move points, like they're crawling or something.

6) You may also split life tokens between players, like 1 token per player for the variant when you get up automatically.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mooseulie Ferenczy
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
1)Insta-death and elimination are not the same thing and you can still get eliminated in this variant, most likely in the same way you can get eliminated in the actual rules: by revealing the goal card.
2)This actually makes the game harder on the investigators since a competent keeper can just keep a monster hovering over a physically weak character and use that monster to suck up all the life tokens by killing him.her, force resuscitation and killing him/her again. A dead investigator represents 2 liabilities to investigators: either he/she is going to soak up turns to kill a monster (or monsters) or he/she is going to soak up all the life counters and leave the investigators short one teammate. Either time or resources. This seems unduly harsh for a game that is already to favorable to the keeper (which again leads to that elimination problem).
3)Sometimes theme needs to be sacrificed to keep the game balanced. A character who is getting beat up enough to die in Mansions of Madness probably needs the fresh restart of a new character. And it is not like death does not come at a penalty. The new investigator is stuck at the front of the mansion (a mixed blessing, depending on the goal), has only his/her starting equipment and does not have whatever keys the previous investigator had. In exchange, they get full health and sanity, a new OPG, and a new set of stats. It seems fair to me.
4)I have yet to really have a complaint with the death mechanics built into the game. While the lives system seems interesting, I am forced to ask probably the most basic question when it comes to variant rules: why is this being created? Death as is has a punishment that seems fair and works. It does not inherently favor one side or the other. If it is not broke, why fix it?
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Yuriy Matuhno
Ukraine
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
1) Thanks, captain obvious. That's totally not what I meant.
2) Oh look, something involving thinking and tactical communication is now bad and harsh.
3) Yes, and this is plain stupid. I'd rather played(and I always do) with investigators just dying, then replace them with another one and technically poop on theme and ambience.
You may see this hards and unbalanced because you play as a "I want to win" keeper. Maybe some of you are those who places quest monster into sealed door room to win. I don't know.
When I play, I'm creating a fun adventure for my players. Tough, but not hell on earth, and still very fun.
4) As I said many times before: I hate investigator replacement on death.
From the very beggining I played with my group with rule of elimination. Death eliminated people. So I thought about the way to make death not the complete end and still not replace anybody or other stuff.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mooseulie Ferenczy
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
No reason to get hostile just because I believe there are flaws to your rules. If you don't actual want people to criticize them, don't put them out for public consumption.
Mansions of Madness already requires tactical thinking and communication among the investigators in order to have a chance of winning. My group has already ruled that we need to have 4 investigators at the start of the game in order to have a chance of exploring the entire mansion and being able to do something about the goal when it is revealed. We already coordinate and plan as is. This variant adds another level to the planning. That is not necessarily a bad thing, but the game is already tough on investigators. Of the two victories I have had as an investigator, one of them was a well-coordinated effort and it still came down to a luck roll in order for the investigators to win. The investigators really don't need to be worrying about the weakest combat character eating up all their lives when we barely completed our objective in a heavily planned game.
And now we get to the debate that is at the center of MoM, how the keeper is supposed to play. I really don't care how you want to play it, but game design that is balanced by the player not doing everything to his advantage is not good game design. Like it or not, the keeper has a victory condition and some people play the keeper to win. Designing a variant excluding a specific way to play the game is doing no one any favors. There are people who are going to want the same amount of flavor as you but believe the keeper should be actively playing to win and your response to them is essentially tough cookies. Your variant has flaws or what I believe are flaws. Sweeping them under the rug by saying the keeper shouldn't exploit those flaws is not a valid fix.
As I have stated many times before, sometimes a character replacement is good for the player. An investigator can be down to 0 sanity with severe trauma making him virtually useless and staring down a mi-go. I would much prefer breaking them and getting a fresh, new character than having a flavorful no one is helping us out of here and still playing a character with no real combat abilities because of some physical trauma and at the mercy of a keeper because I have no sanity. I would prefer to have the flavor of being stuck alone in this mansion and having the four investigators be the last line of defense as opposed to being the last line of defense until Sister Mary is eaten by Karl the friendly Shuggoth and Michael McGlen checked his mail and walked into the mansion to find out what was up rather conveniently. But your lives system is not quite the right fix. Instead of getting a full-healed restart when you need it, you get a minor heal right where you were with the same monster(s) looming over you. And as stated before too few lives and it is easy for the keeper to exploit. Too many and death becomes pointless for the keeper.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Yuriy Matuhno
Ukraine
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't know how you found my post hostile.
Summing up your large post it has a few minor points, everything else is "herp derp I don't like it". OK, dude, I'm all right with that.
Adressing those points which was not "I'm personally don't like this idea":
Monsters can't attack fallen investigators until they stand back up.
In variant where you need someone else to get you up, they probably will take care of a monster.
Death as a salvation to all your mistakes is good ofc, what can be better than getting a fresh new investigator after all mistakes and errors you made which led you to insanity or/and death.
Talking of balance, MoM is not balanced as it is, without any variants. Game bases on pure RNG can't be balanced.
Adressing killing weakest and draining life tokens by that I suggestet individual life tokens for each invest before, and I also may suggest you my interception variant which I posted somewhere on this forum.

P.S.: I love how some enthusiast upvotes every single post in the thread.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon Dennis
United States
Waterloo
Iowa
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The keeper killing off players too early is also "unthematic and stupid." This is a Cthulhu horror game, not a wargame. The keeper should distract, cripple, and drive investigators insane whenever possible, and only kill them after the final objective is revealed.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Laine
United States
Whittier
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TrueLolzor wrote:
I don't know how you found my post hostile.


Very hostile and condescending. It starts with name-calling, and brushes off valid concerns with "this is plain stupid." And your follow-up post is the same way--but maybe I just have a case of the "herp derp I don't like it."

You also make assumptions about people's play-style in an off-hand and derogatory manner (e.g. someone who criticizes you may very well be a keeper who plays boss monsters behind locked doors!). When in reality, it's being pointed out that your rules create more opportunities for keeper exploitation. Maybe some FFG playtesters pointed out problems like the locked doors to the designers, and the designers waived away these concerns. And now we have a broken game. This criticism is meant to make sure your variant design doesn't create further imbalance, and you're disregarding it.

Also, it sounds like you're playing the game simply wrong, in a way that makes it even more tipped in the keeper's favor. The game is hard enough as-is--to make a house-rule that equates death with elimination is unduly brutal. Yes, maybe your new rules "fix" that problem, but it's not an issue that was present in the game's actual rules.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
bob dole
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
So this variant is meant to address something that's only an issue because of another variant you have in that death=elimination in all cases. And then further assume that using this will be for people who don't actually play to win. Except you write off criticism with hostility(yes, writing off someone's legitimate critique as "herp derp I don't like it" and by saying that this requires the investigators to be intelligent, but the keeper shouldn't be. And if I wanted to give my players a good time, I'd go play an actual rpg where I don't have a win condition as the person running the game.

Also, this assumes that investigators stay close together, if they're spread out then there's no guarantee that they'll be rezzed, or whatever you want to call it, in a turn. Meaning that an investigator gets locked out of the game and his teammates are punished. Not to mention that monsters are hard to kill and there's no guarantee that you'll be able to kill them while still following the clues. There's also the issue of action economy in spending time rezzing an investigator. And people don't get new investigators cause they don't get rewarded for a nonchalant attitude for survival and messing up...except wear and tear is inevitable in the game with the options for healing being slow and not all that effective.

Also, elimination does not mean instantaneous. But then again, you shown that your responses so far have been dimissive and hostile, so this probably won't change your mind. I'm out of this.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Yuriy Matuhno
Ukraine
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
macgowan wrote:
The keeper killing off players too early is also "unthematic and stupid." This is a Cthulhu horror game, not a wargame. The keeper should distract, cripple, and drive investigators insane whenever possible, and only kill them after the final objective is revealed.
You're mistaken Cthulhu mythos with hollywood movies.

To David Laine:
I haven't specified anyone, if you had taken something personal, then... well, then it's your problem. This is how I communicate. Offending someone is not my intent.

Ye, I play game wrong, you play game right.


To bob dole:
Dude, I won't even say any word to you past this as very first lines of your post prove you didn't read a shit of this thread.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Laine
United States
Whittier
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TrueLolzor wrote:
This is how I communicate. Offending someone is not my intent.


I think that's something you need to work on. I haven't taken any offense, because I saw how you treat people and was responding to it.

Three people looked at your comments today and called them "hostile," "dismissive," and "condescending." Instead of using a cop-out like claiming that's our problem (not yours), or brushing us aside with "This is how I communicate," look at what you say and really consider how it comes across to others, and think about more productive ways to get your views across. You won't sway people to your viewpoint by attacking them.

It might suck to hear, but you need to learn to take criticism and communicate with people. You'll be happier for it in the long run.

TrueLolzor wrote:
macgowan wrote:
The keeper killing off players too early is also "unthematic and stupid." This is a Cthulhu horror game, not a wargame. The keeper should distract, cripple, and drive investigators insane whenever possible, and only kill them after the final objective is revealed.
You're mistaken Cthulhu mythos with hollywood movies.


That's pretty much exactly the Cthulhu Mythos. It's actually what I like about MOM, and why I wish the game had better design. AH is way more Hollywood, way more Pulp Cthulhu. Investigators go out with guns blazing in the streets of Arkham, bagging monsters left and right. Don't get me wrong--it's a lot of fun, but it's not exactly a Lovecraftian take on Cthulhu. MOM is darker, more story-driven, and closer to Lovecraft's work.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Yuriy Matuhno
Ukraine
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The thing is I'm not trying to sway anyone to my viewpoint because, you know, people don't change their viewpoints based on someone else's opinion on the internet. I'm not attacking anyone.

Yea, and there is also one trhing about Lovecraftian work's - people usually don't survive. And all making it from beginning to the end is nonsense.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon Dennis
United States
Waterloo
Iowa
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TrueLolzor wrote:
Yea, and there is also one trhing about Lovecraftian work's - people usually don't survive. And all making it from beginning to the end is nonsense.

So you're saying "Lovecraftian" = people getting killed off, rather than being driven insane from witnessing unimaginable horror? Can you give some examples of HPL or mythos works where "people usually don't survive" is the theme?
Because I think you're missing the point. Either that or you haven't read enough Lovecraft.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Laine
United States
Whittier
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TrueLolzor wrote:
The thing is I'm not trying to sway anyone to my viewpoint because, you know, people don't change their viewpoints based on someone else's opinion on the internet.


Through reasonable and well-thought-out argument, people can change other people's ideas and opinions whether it's through speech, writing, blogging, etc. You obviously thought you might sway some people to your viewpoint when you decided to post this variant here--otherwise, what was the point of any of this?

TrueLolzor wrote:
I'm not attacking anyone.


You're obviously not taking me seriously. I was being Captain Obvious when I pointed out how rude you are to people who are just trying to help. Although at least this was your first civil post in awhile, so maybe you do see it but just don't want to admit it. Anyway, I'm out after this post. I don't see much point hitting my head against a brick wall anymore.

TrueLolzor wrote:
Yea, and there is also one trhing about Lovecraftian work's - people usually don't survive. And all making it from beginning to the end is nonsense.


Spoiler (click to reveal)
Many Lovecraft stories involve heroes who escape, but changed by the experience (e.g. The Festival, The Dunwich Horror, At the Mountains of Madness, The Shadow Out of Time, The Shadow Over Innsmouth) or who complete their adventure, only to die shortly thereafter (The Call of Cthulhu, Dagon, The Dreams in the Witch House).
And if it's nonsense for everybody to make it to the end, don't the game's original rules make more sense than "life tokens"? It makes more sense for people to die, and other hands to take up the investigation, such as in The Call of Cthulhu.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Yuriy Matuhno
Ukraine
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I just shared my ideas and thoughts on this. Some people may like it and of them may not, it's not in my power to change it.

Being driven insane leads you to death. If you'll investigate, you'll notice that being knocked uncounscious in my variant leads you to insanity.

Because in original rules died invest instantly gets replaced like nothing happened. And no that fear of death.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Roberta Yang
msg tools
TrueLolzor wrote:
I just shared my ideas and thoughts on this. Some people may like it and of them may not, it's not in my power to change it.

No, it is absolutely in your power to change it. You can adopt a less hostile attitude when stating your viewpoints.

Your previous statement, "people don't change their viewpoints based on someone else's opinion on the internet", seems quite telling. Certainly, I doubt they can be persuaded of more deeply-held beliefs of a political or religious nature, but on less fundamental topics like aspects of board games I frequently see people change their minds, and frequently change my own mind, as a result of internet discussions. What you really mean is that people don't change their viewpoints based on your opinion on the internet, and that is because your manner is so hostile.

TrueLolzor wrote:
Being driven insane leads you to death. If you'll investigate, you'll notice that being knocked uncounscious in my variant leads you to insanity.

Which is only logical. After all, being insane causes you to make poor decisions which leads you to die, so it is only natural that being dead leads you to... be insane because a total lack of blood flow to the brain makes it hard to think straight? You seem to be trying to make some kind of argument from symmetry here, but it falls flat because health and sanity are by no means equal-but-opposite stats.

You should also note that being insane doesn't directly lead you to death in Mansions of Madness. It gives the Keeper a couple of options for making you kill yourself (The Only Way Out) or your allies (Friend?), and with Forbidden Alchemy's new non-attribute tests and conditional modifiers you might be a little bit worse at combat occasionally, but you don't start magically taking physical damage due to a lack of sanity.

TrueLolzor wrote:
Because in original rules died invest instantly gets replaced like nothing happened. And no that fear of death.

Which is indeed a problem with the original rules, but I don't think this is the solution. Personally, I like bleached-lizard's solution - if an Investigator dies before the finale, the Keeper gains 5 Threat. (Plus 5 more if that Investigator was the blood relative.)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marc Mistiaen
Belgium
Brussels
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TrueLolzor wrote:
I don't know how you found my post hostile.

I'll try to keep it simple for you: you're a douche. This does not make you look good to the eyes of the community.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew M
United States
New Haven
Connecticut
flag msg tools
admin
8/8 FREE, PROTECTED
badge
513ers Assemble!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'll try to keep it simple for you: if you see something you want to react negatively to, don't.

If you find any content that violates our site rules please use the icon. This serves two functions - first, if enough users flag a post then it will be collapsed from general view. Second, flagging posts helps bring them to the attention of the forum moderators.

Thanks!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.