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Subject: Market Question rss

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Mark C
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I agree with the post below from another thread regarding the market phase. A player can sell and rebuy the same cube repeatedly to remain active in the market phase. In a game yesterday, I forced a player to buy all my copper because that player wanted to stay active and no other cubes were available until I'd dumped my copper. It's possible as is pointed out, that two (or some combination of) players both have cubes the other wants, but are unwilling to sell until the other drops.

#1 below would work and mean anything that is put on the market can be bought.
#2 seems problematic as it could result in so-called penny auctions.
#3 also would work, but as a practical matter, I think you'd want to use an easily tracked number, say 3, even though it would create a limit.

#4 I would suggest needs to be modified to track easily. Players must sell first, then once they pass on selling, can only buy until all have passed. This is easy enough to do by placing their pawn to the right of the turn order or something similar. Buyers can pass and still jump back in.


Barticus88 wrote:
pdubarry wrote:
1. Roads are one of the things you can build during the Building Phase (on your turn during this phase). You may build as many as you want/can afford.

I'm glad to hear it's in the Building Phase, because Resolution Phase has timing issues (but could be more fun). Please put that in the rules.
pdubarry wrote:
All you building-related activities must be completed during your turn of the Building Phase.

Does this mean player 1 builds a building and roads and temple parts before player 2 builds anything? Rotation like in the Placement and Market Phases would make more sense.
pdubarry wrote:
Randall: Each level includes a ? cube in the cost. The new board has a ? over the white cube. This cube can be anything.

Is that in the rules or are you making this up? I actually figured that out half an hour ago. I am sure that with high quality printing the ? will be clear, but I have a $20 printer. This morning I saw a green cube and a gray cube where I now see a dark gray cube and a light gray cube with some squiggle in it. If we had seen the ? last night it would have been clear, but words would be nice.
pdubarry wrote:
4. Yes, but I'm not clear on why you would want to. I would love to hear more analysis on this point. There is still a sliver of time to fix something if necessary.

The problem with the market is more in theory than in practice. Once a player passes he can't come back in, so that pass is a loss of an option. If there is any chance that someone will sell the resource I need, I want to stay in. It's a decision point that could theoretically lean toward playing forever. In practice it will eventually be clear that the decision point is perfectly balanced, and it requires boredom to push the decision toward passing.

Suggested alternates:

Market fix 1) Allow players back in the market. The phase ends when all four players pass in sequence as in Saint Petersburg. This could still be filibustered, but the decision point that leans slightly toward continuing is removed.

Market fix 2) The market takes a cut. In many games, the price you pay is 1 shekel higher than you receive

Market fix 3) A maximum number of times around the market. The number would be larger than necessary (eg, 12).

Market fix 4) You may not buy and sell the same commodity in one Market Phase. During that phase, you will not acquire a Fortune Card, nor will a new building be turned up, so there usually won't be reason for your goals to shift.
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Philip duBarry
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Your modified #4 option was also suggested to me by Seth Jaffe. If we ever get a chance to reprint the game and/or release an updated rulebook, I may consider doing something like this. I will have to do some testing of this . . .

If you (or anyone) wants to play that way, let me know how it goes!
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Mark C
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Btw, the folks I introduced it to enjoyed your game. Glad I could help as backer.
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Ender Wiggins
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Barticus88 wrote:
The problem with the market is more in theory than in practice. Once a player passes he can't come back in, so that pass is a loss of an option. If there is any chance that someone will sell the resource I need, I want to stay in. It's a decision point that could theoretically lean toward playing forever. In practice it will eventually be clear that the decision point is perfectly balanced, and it requires boredom to push the decision toward passing.

Suggested alternates:

Market fix 1) Allow players back in the market. The phase ends when all four players pass in sequence as in Saint Petersburg. This could still be filibustered, but the decision point that leans slightly toward continuing is removed.

Market fix 2) The market takes a cut. In many games, the price you pay is 1 shekel higher than you receive

Market fix 3) A maximum number of times around the market. The number would be larger than necessary (eg, 12).

Market fix 4) You may not buy and sell the same commodity in one Market Phase. During that phase, you will not acquire a Fortune Card, nor will a new building be turned up, so there usually won't be reason for your goals to shift.

I share the sentiments that a small fix to the rules for the Market might help make the game run a little more smoothly. In both the games we've played so far, we had players buy and sell (or vice versa) the same good at the market on successive turns, simply because they didn't want to pass and be out of the running in the event an opponent sold a good they wanted. I even did it myself, because the rules allowed it and it was the optimal legal move in the circumstances, but it sure felt a bit tacky, and counter-intuitive to how a market should work.

I like the suggested alternatives, and am inclined to favour #1 first, followed by #4:

• Market fix #4 might be a bit harder to track, and can still force players out of the market sooner than they would like. Furthermore it leaves no margin for making mistakes, because sometimes you might change your mind during this phase and decide to build something different than you were first planning. But it does seem to be an improvement on the current rules.

• Market fix #1 enables the market to be used to its full potential, and we might try this in future plays to see how it works. Further playtesting might uncover new issues that it creates (e.g. will it cause players to start outguessing each other's buying decisions, and create a need for constant re-evaluation that could slow down the game), but for now it seems to me to be the most attractive improvement.
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Jason DeWitt
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I guess we were playing incorrectly...lol...we were using Market Fix #1 and didn't realize once you passed you were out. Oops. I guess next time we play we'll play the correct way and see how that rolls.
 
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Tom
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Sorry to waken a dead thread but why not raise the market prices slightly and then allow people to buy any good even if it is not in stock? Maybe if there is nothing available you can a good for four points more than the highest number in the market for a particular good.
 
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Mark C
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johnnyspys wrote:
Sorry to waken a dead thread but why not raise the market prices slightly and then allow people to buy any good even if it is not in stock? Maybe if there is nothing available you can a good for four points more than the highest number in the market for a particular good.


I think this would break the game --supply of goods are limited to what's in the game. The counterbalance to limited supply is that goods have to be produced, and provide pretty good VP in the market.
 
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Tom
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Gamer_Dog wrote:
johnnyspys wrote:
Sorry to waken a dead thread but why not raise the market prices slightly and then allow people to buy any good even if it is not in stock? Maybe if there is nothing available you can a good for four points more than the highest number in the market for a particular good.


I think this would break the game --supply of goods are limited to what's in the game. The counterbalance to limited supply is that goods have to be produced, and provide pretty good VP in the market.


If the cost is high enough I am not sure it would break the game. I am not sure ten points for a gold is a deal breaker considering a building is usually in the range of no more than 18 points.

I am sure my three experiences are subject to group think (although I have played with three different groups and the results were the same) but in three four player games nobody sold until the last turn in each of the three games. There just didn't seem to be an incentive to sell when you could horde the goods and use them for future buildings, roads, and or temple walls. I am not completely convinced (haven't done the math) the points are that good in a four player game to sell anything before the last turn.
 
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Mark C
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I believe it is group-think. Producing and selling is a very good source of VP --enough so that a player filling the market and concentrating on buildings later IMO has an advantage over players who forgo the market. The problem with forgoing the market is that it crashes as goods are over-produced, and become effectively worthless until they can be combined into the specific combinations that award points. Even then, that value is subject to the pressure of turn order.
 
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Ender Wiggins
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I just noticed that there's been a rule-change in the updated rules (version 2).

Market fix #4 above has now become the official rule:

"You may not buy a resource that you sold during this phase, or sell the same resource that you bought."
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