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Subject: Rick Perry will end his campaign -- rumored to endorse Gingrich rss

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Chad Ellis
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Well, when Gingrich announced that conservatives needed a non-Romney standard bearer so everyone but him should drop out I didn't think he'd get any takers. Then again, Perry almost dropped out a while back (usually when you say you're going to "reassess" after getting stomped it's like telling a boy/girlfriend, "We need to reassess our relationship...maybe see other people").

I don't think it will matter, but it's good theatre.
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Texas needs stricter border enforcement. But only while Perry is outside of our borders.
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We'll now be able to save the $400 extra we're paying our Lieutenant Governor to run the state, and we'll get Perry back. I'm so excited!
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No take backs!
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Jeff Brown
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I haven't decided who I will back politically so this isn't an endorsement of anyone, but I thought this article was interesting, about social conservatives. It's written by a catholic commenting on attitudes in the election

Entitled:

Better to be an adulterer than a mormon.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/returntorome/2012/01/better-to-...
 
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William Boykin
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Well there goes a hundred bucks.

To the people I lost to-

You'll need to wait till Feb. I was figuring he would last a BIT longer.

Darilian
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Chad Ellis
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jeff brown wrote:
I haven't decided who I will back politically so this isn't an endorsement of anyone, but I thought this article was interesting, about social conservatives. It's written by a catholic commenting on attitudes in the election

Entitled:

Better to be an adulterer than a mormon.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/returntorome/2012/01/better-to-...


I think the article really misunderstands the evangelical mindset. It's not that being a Mormon is worse than being an adulterer or murderer. It's that to the evangelical the only important question is whether one is saved. We're all sinners, lost and broken, and it doesn't much matter what the sin is. You are either saved by faith through grace or you aren't. The problem with being Mormon isn't that it's a worse sin but rather that the evangelical holds that one can't br born again in Christ and yet still subscribe to Mormon beliefs about Jesus.
 
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Jeff Brown
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
jeff brown wrote:
I haven't decided who I will back politically so this isn't an endorsement of anyone, but I thought this article was interesting, about social conservatives. It's written by a catholic commenting on attitudes in the election

Entitled:

Better to be an adulterer than a mormon.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/returntorome/2012/01/better-to-...


I think the article really misunderstands the evangelical mindset. It's not that being a Mormon is worse than being an adulterer or murderer. It's that to the evangelical the only important question is whether one is saved. We're all sinners, lost and broken, and it doesn't much matter what the sin is. You are either saved by faith through grace or you aren't. The problem with being Mormon isn't that it's a worse sin but rather that the evangelical holds that one can't br born again in Christ and yet still subscribe to Mormon beliefs about Jesus.

I agree that that is the evangelical mindset as I understand it, but I think that the author would probably agree with that as well. I think the author is saying that if that is truly the mindset then there is something wrong with that mindset. Something which I would also agree.
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Shushnik wrote:
jeff brown wrote:
I agree that that is the evangelical mindset as I understand it, but I think that the author would probably agree with that as well. I think the author is saying that if that is truly the mindset then there is something wrong with that mindset. Something which I would also agree.


Poor Mormons, have to deal with the same stigmas that Atheists have been enduring for millenia.

LOL

Try being a Jew through the millenia.
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Shushnik wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Shushnik wrote:
jeff brown wrote:
I agree that that is the evangelical mindset as I understand it, but I think that the author would probably agree with that as well. I think the author is saying that if that is truly the mindset then there is something wrong with that mindset. Something which I would also agree.


Poor Mormons, have to deal with the same stigmas that Atheists have been enduring for millenia.

LOL

Try being a Jew through the millenia.


You guys can't bitch, it's Yahweh that keeps giving you crap. If you guys would quit worshiping him, maybe he'd leave you alone

1. wrong Name.
2. actually people are the ones that do things in the world to each other
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Shushnik wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Shushnik wrote:


Poor Mormons, have to deal with the same stigmas that Atheists have been enduring for millenia.

LOL

Try being a Jew through the millenia.


Well I don't speak Hebrew. My apologies for any inability to properly decipher ancient languages.


Does it count as an ancient language when there's a country where it's in common use? I mean, obviously it's an old language, but I guess when I hear "ancient language", I think of a language no longer in use.

Anyway, good luck to you both in the oppression olympics, and remember the words of Bizarro Martin Luther King: "INJUSTICE ANYWHERE IS NOT MATTER, ME TALK ABOUT ME NOT GET JUSTICE!"
 
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Shushnik wrote:
jeff brown wrote:
I agree that that is the evangelical mindset as I understand it, but I think that the author would probably agree with that as well. I think the author is saying that if that is truly the mindset then there is something wrong with that mindset. Something which I would also agree.


Poor Mormons, have to deal with the same stigmas that Atheists have been enduring for millenia.


Not if he was a democrat.
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Chad Ellis
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jeff brown wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
jeff brown wrote:
I haven't decided who I will back politically so this isn't an endorsement of anyone, but I thought this article was interesting, about social conservatives. It's written by a catholic commenting on attitudes in the election

Entitled:

Better to be an adulterer than a mormon.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/returntorome/2012/01/better-to-...


I think the article really misunderstands the evangelical mindset. It's not that being a Mormon is worse than being an adulterer or murderer. It's that to the evangelical the only important question is whether one is saved. We're all sinners, lost and broken, and it doesn't much matter what the sin is. You are either saved by faith through grace or you aren't. The problem with being Mormon isn't that it's a worse sin but rather that the evangelical holds that one can't br born again in Christ and yet still subscribe to Mormon beliefs about Jesus.

I agree that that is the evangelical mindset as I understand it, but I think that the author would probably agree with that as well. I think the author is saying that if that is truly the mindset then there is something wrong with that mindset. Something which I would also agree.


Well, I'm no fan of the mindset but I think it's actually pretty reasonable given a basic premise that God/Jesus is the way they believe Him to be.

If Evangelicals are right then Mormons aren't just wrong on small points of doctrine but about the basic nature of Christ and salvation. It seems reasonable to think that one cannot be both born again in Christ and yet also so fundamentally wrong about His nature. Thus, to be Mormon indicates (in a way similar to other "fruit") the status of one's salvation and what it indicates is "no".
 
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whac3 wrote:
Shushnik wrote:
jeff brown wrote:
I agree that that is the evangelical mindset as I understand it, but I think that the author would probably agree with that as well. I think the author is saying that if that is truly the mindset then there is something wrong with that mindset. Something which I would also agree.


Poor Mormons, have to deal with the same stigmas that Atheists have been enduring for millenia.

LOL

Try being a Jew through the millenia.


I'd love to, but I doubt I can live anything like that long.
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Jeff Brown
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
jeff brown wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
jeff brown wrote:
I haven't decided who I will back politically so this isn't an endorsement of anyone, but I thought this article was interesting, about social conservatives. It's written by a catholic commenting on attitudes in the election

Entitled:

Better to be an adulterer than a mormon.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/returntorome/2012/01/better-to-...


I think the article really misunderstands the evangelical mindset. It's not that being a Mormon is worse than being an adulterer or murderer. It's that to the evangelical the only important question is whether one is saved. We're all sinners, lost and broken, and it doesn't much matter what the sin is. You are either saved by faith through grace or you aren't. The problem with being Mormon isn't that it's a worse sin but rather that the evangelical holds that one can't br born again in Christ and yet still subscribe to Mormon beliefs about Jesus.

I agree that that is the evangelical mindset as I understand it, but I think that the author would probably agree with that as well. I think the author is saying that if that is truly the mindset then there is something wrong with that mindset. Something which I would also agree.


Well, I'm no fan of the mindset but I think it's actually pretty reasonable given a basic premise that God/Jesus is the way they believe Him to be.

If Evangelicals are right then Mormons aren't just wrong on small points of doctrine but about the basic nature of Christ and salvation. It seems reasonable to think that one cannot be both born again in Christ and yet also so fundamentally wrong about His nature. Thus, to be Mormon indicates (in a way similar to other "fruit") the status of one's salvation and what it indicates is "no".


The reason why I brought it up was that two months ago Thechin! mentioned this in another thread http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/7851672#7851672
TheChin! wrote:
I really, truly hope that people are not choosing Newt over Mitt because of Mitt's mormonism. Because if someone could accept Newt's immorality over Mitt's difference in Christianity plot details then they are missing some key brain centers.


I was curious if that would happen so I've been watching, and sure enough, that seems to be the case.

I understand the thought process behind it as you describe it. I guess that is why I find some major problems on salvation that is based on grace alone, it leads to some weird conclusions when you follow that logic to its inevitable conclusion.
 
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Shushnik wrote:
jeff brown wrote:
I agree that that is the evangelical mindset as I understand it, but I think that the author would probably agree with that as well. I think the author is saying that if that is truly the mindset then there is something wrong with that mindset. Something which I would also agree.


Poor Mormons, have to deal with the same stigmas that Atheists have been enduring for millenia.

LOL

Try being a Jew through the millenia.


I'd love to, but I doubt I can live anything like that long.


It has precedent! The Wandering Jew
 
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Shushnik wrote:
jeff brown wrote:
I agree that that is the evangelical mindset as I understand it, but I think that the author would probably agree with that as well. I think the author is saying that if that is truly the mindset then there is something wrong with that mindset. Something which I would also agree.


Poor Mormons, have to deal with the same stigmas that Atheists have been enduring for millenia.


For the record, I do not feel like a persecuted individual.

I'm just talking about a mindset that is puzzling to me.
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Chad Ellis
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jeff brown wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
The reason why I brought it up was that two months ago Thechin! mentioned this in another thread http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/7851672#7851672
[q="TheChin!"]I really, truly hope that people are not choosing Newt over Mitt because of Mitt's mormonism. Because if someone could accept Newt's immorality over Mitt's difference in Christianity plot details then they are missing some key brain centers.


I was curious if that would happen so I've been watching, and sure enough, that seems to be the case.

I understand the thought process behind it as you describe it. I guess that is why I find some major problems on salvation that is based on grace alone, it leads to some weird conclusions when you follow that logic to its inevitable conclusion.


Hey, me too. I think Evangelical Christianity is borderline incoherent at best. I just think it's incorrect to boil down the Mormon issue (for evangelicals) to "plot details".

I once tried to explain it by analogy. There's a meeting, and the only way you'll be allowed to go to the meeting is if a particular person has invited you. The person's name is John Alewife Morgan, and he's six feet tall, white with dark black hair and blue eyes and always goes with two Irish Setters. You know all this because you know John personally and you also have a biography about him.

You meet someone who says that he's invited to the meeting too. Yes, he confirms that the invitation came from John Alewife Morgan. But he says that Morgan is five foot four, has red hair and is allergic to dogs. Most likely you would conclude that this person had not met the actual guy and was not going to be allowed into the meeting.

Mormons worship Jesus but the Jesus of Mormonism is fundamentally different from the Jesus of evangelical Christianity -- so much so that it seems pretty natural for them to conclude that yours isn't the real John Alewife Morgan. Maybe he's a demon, maybe he's no one, but he's not the Son of God...and thus, he can't provide salvation.

Right or wrong, this isn't about Mormonism being "worse" than murder or adultery. It's about murder and adultery being sins for which salvation is a full cure while Mormonism (and every other worship of God that isn't the God of the evangelical interpretation of the Bible) is rejection of God's word and God's salvation.

(Apologies if it sounds like I think you don't get this...I'm more rambling and responding to folks like the author of the piece and Thechin!
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Here is a paragraph from the article explaining that he understands what it comes from but also the reasons why there is something wrong with it.

Quote:
I am, of course, not suggesting that Evangelicals are thoughtless bigots, or even that most Evangelicals share this gentleman’s lack of theological nuance and judgment. Far from it. If anything, I am convinced that his answers are borne of a deep commitment to theological truth, something that one rarely finds in a culture in which theological claims are treated as no epistemically higher than matters of taste. In this sense, his willingness to stand against the spirit of the age is admirable. But in another sense–tying a believer’s eternal fate to overt cognitive assent to a set of doctrines without regard to whether in fact the believer’s life reflects Christian virtue–seems not very Christian at all. It, ironically, reflects an acquiescence to the flip side of the spirit of the age: it treats the human person as a bifurcated being consisting of an all-important mind that consents to doctrine and an unimportant body that is alien to the “true” self.


edit: I do understand what you are saying, and I respect that you are always able to empathize with groups you don't agree with .
 
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jeff brown wrote:
Here is a paragraph from the article explaining that he understands what it comes from but also the reasons why there is something wrong with it.

Quote:
I am, of course, not suggesting that Evangelicals are thoughtless bigots, or even that most Evangelicals share this gentleman’s lack of theological nuance and judgment. Far from it. If anything, I am convinced that his answers are borne of a deep commitment to theological truth, something that one rarely finds in a culture in which theological claims are treated as no epistemically higher than matters of taste. In this sense, his willingness to stand against the spirit of the age is admirable. But in another sense–tying a believer’s eternal fate to overt cognitive assent to a set of doctrines without regard to whether in fact the believer’s life reflects Christian virtue–seems not very Christian at all. It, ironically, reflects an acquiescence to the flip side of the spirit of the age: it treats the human person as a bifurcated being consisting of an all-important mind that consents to doctrine and an unimportant body that is alien to the “true” self.


edit: I do understand what you are saying, and I respect that you are always able to empathize with groups you don't agree with .


I wouldn't say always, but thanks.

I actually don't think that the author gets it. If the question was, "Can someone be a Mormon all their life and then become born again shortly before death and be saved?" the answer would be an easy yes. The implicit assumption in the questions (or at least in the evangelical's answers) is that the adulterer and murderer leave their crimes in the past (when they get saved) but that the Mormon remains a Mormon until death.

Evangelicals do care very much about fruit -- they just see it differently. For a Catholic, as I understand it, faith and fruit are almost inseparable. Good works are a sign of faith, they strengthen faith and they make faith meaningful. I get the impression from conversations with Mormons that they see things in a similar way, but perhaps with an even greater emphasis on fruit being valuable on its own account. For evangelicals, fruit is wonderful but it's purely symptom. Someone who is saved will naturally be drawn to do good works. Someone whose life shows no fruit is presumably unsaved, not because good works are a requirement of salvation but because a complete lack of good works would logically indicate a lack of God's grace.
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Indeed, I think Chad's summary is pretty well on the mark. The evangelical position isn't that works aren't important, but that they don't have a causative role in salvation...works are a necessary result of salvation, but doing good works does not help cause one to be saved.

As to the original topic, FWIW I'm an evangelical who doesn't have any problem voting for Mitt Romney on the grounds of his religious beliefs. As I stated in another thread, I do consider Gingrich a non-starter based character/temperament concerns.
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