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Subject: do small decals affect the probability of dice? rss

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Steve Wood
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Let's say we have a D6 with 4 blank sides and 2 sides that feature small decals.

Is this going to mess around with the odds very much? Would the sides with the decals tend to want to land face down due to their added weight?

My guess is "no" since the weight is VERY slight.

Discuss.
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Heavens no.
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Sam Mercer
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The practical answer is probably "no" because the weight is VERY slight.

Conclusion.

^^
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Rich Shipley
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I wouldn't worry about the weight. A possible issue is the flatness of the side with the decal. If the sides with the decals have a "rock" to them, they may be less likely to settle on that side. If rolling on felt, a decal edge might catch causing a tumble, where a smooth edge might slide.

In practice, I doubt it would be measurable.
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Sam Phillips Beckerman
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it may be "very slight" but as a percentage of the dice's weight, that might be significant. I know the standard for casino dice is higher than what gamers use...

BTW, if you or a friend gets to Reno or Las Vegas, the gift shops there have whole displays of colored dice for 25c each. Very cool.
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Steve Wood
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Excellent

And therefore, you have all helped to create my first Kickstarter reward, a set of 4 custom Defense Cannon dice!

Off to design, plot, and apply to 100 sets of dice!

Muahahahahaha


Thanks,

Steve
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Sturv Tafvherd
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Escape Pod Games wrote:
Is this going to mess around with the odds very much? Would the sides with the decals tend to want to land face down due to their added weight?


Try this: ask people who practice sleight of hand ... you know, the "professional dice rollers" who can dictate what the face-up side will be.

From the videos I've seen ... it's more about the way the dice roll and bounce.
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Benjamin Maggi
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While the decals may affect the weight, unless the base dice you purchase are perfectly balanced anyway you cannot do anything about it. To what end, anyway? I suppose you could place the decals on opposite sides of the dice instead of next to each to balance them out.
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Andreas Pelikan
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If you want to be over-cautious, put a blank decal on the four other faces, or make sure the decals are on opposing faces to counter-balance each other. Getting some glue on a corner will have a much bigger impact, though still negligible.
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Unless you're using extremely precise dice (very unlikely), any effects caused by the decals will be overwhelmed by the effects caused by minor manufacturing defects.
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Joe Mucchiello
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I would say probably yes, but for most dice, you might end up fixing a "bad" die just as often as you break a "good" die. One way to know for sure would be to determine the die's Chi square before and after affixing the label and seeing if the difference is within tolerance you can, uh, tolerate.
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Nicholas Vitek
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You could also pick up indented blank dice, that way the stickers don't have as much of an impact when you roll them. I'd recommend www.indentedblankdice.com, but that's because I run the site. You can also pick the dice up from a number of different sites.


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Escape Pod Games wrote:
Is this going to mess around with the odds very much?


From the person who doesn't roll the number/side they want - Yes.

From the person who does roll the number/side they want - No.



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Kevin Nunn
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The answer can be yes. This is most likely to occur if decals are not placed on every face.

Dice can also be skewed if the pips have been drilled too deeply. During the development of Rolling Freight, I discovered that one of my dice (standard drilled pips with decals over the pips) was rolling FAR from fair.

For both of these reasons, I definitely prefer to use indented blank dice with stickers.
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Let's put it this way: if you had a way to implement such an insignificant deviation in probabilities by way of design, would you be able to immediately tell which distribution was the best, or would such a choice be arbitrary?
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Steve Wood
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so far so good. I'm gonna roll these things 100 times tonight and write down the results.

This accomplishes 3 things:

test probabilities

test durability

drive the wife insane

lol will post pics tomorrow.

Thanks,

Steve
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Technically yes, but it would be so marginal, that over the course of 100s to 1000s of die rolls you might see a probability difference begin to appear.

Although, it would bother me having some decal sides while others were not for aesthetic reasons. However, that is just me personally.
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Isaac Shalev
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The answer is that they will affect the odds, for a number of reasons:

1 - the weight
2 - the width of the faces with the decals
3 - the muffling effect the decals have on the way the die bounces off that face

Probably other things too. But something to know is that board game dine in general aren't necessarily all that accurate, and tests have shows that some dice in board games show deviations of as much as 20% on the probability of any giving side showing up (ie instead of a 16.66% chance of getting a 2, you can have a die with as much as 3.3 percentage points more chance of getting a 2)

Given the possible skew just b/c of the imprecision of board game dice, you may as well ignore the decals - they won't influence the die as much as that.
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John "Omega" Williams
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As was explained to me, and as Isaac above points out. Yes. Having stickers on only 4 sides of a dice will definitely alter its rolling. The stickers are going to act as shock absorbers. If that isnt evenly distributed all over the dice. The some numbers will roll less.

If I recall correctly. The stickered sides will roll less often than the plain sides in this case.

The easiest way to fix this is to sticker all six sides. There, problem solved for minimal effort to extend the sticker sheet and printing.
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Martin Manning
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Escape Pod Games wrote:
so far so good. I'm gonna roll these things 100 times tonight and write down the results.

This accomplishes 3 things:

test probabilities

test durability

drive the wife insane

lol will post pics tomorrow.

Thanks,

Steve


You probably need at least 1,000 rolls, maybe 10,000 to get a good idea of what (if any) effect the decals have on the results. With only 100 rolls, you might be seeing "patterns" where there are none.
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Al Beckner
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Yes, sticker all 6 sides and you don't have to roll them 10000 time.
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