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Subject: A couple of rules questions rss

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Mark Bigney
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Some friends and I played for the first time last night and we had the following questions.

-Does it cost any resources to take new ship parts? And do all of your ships get upgraded, or merely the ones you build from that point onward? We suspected only new ships get the better parts, but we couldn't be sure.
-When there are multiple battles to be fought, who decides the order? We let the start player decide.
-Where do you put the damage cubes when a ship has been damaged? Next to the plastic ship, or the ship on your mat? To be clear, we put the cubes next to the player's cat, but we then had the problem of the cats moving away from the cubes. So we houseruled that a single hit will destroy any ship.
-Extra hull pieces seem really underpowered, since a single hit will destroy anything. Also the Antimatter Cannon is way too weak and overcosted, so we houseruled that it can hit on any roll.
-The rulebook lists various setups for the number of players, but how can you tell how many players you have? We just rolled a six-sided die, but sometimes it comes up a 1.
-The game needs a solo variant.
-It's completely unrealistic that missiles would only fire once--can't the tubes be reloaded? We houseruled that they can fire every other round.
-Missiles are way too strong.
-Why bother fighting? All that might happen is you lose a ship and gain victory points. But that seems like a terrible trade, since ships let you fight battles all throughout the game and VPs only help you at the end of the game to win. We houseruled that the first player to win a fight will win the game at the end of turn 9.

Thanks for any help! The game seems great, but the rules could use a lot of work.
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Gyges wrote:
-Does it cost any resources to take new ship parts?


No, you've "paid" for it in building the ship and in researching the technology.

Quote:
And do all of your ships get upgraded, or merely the ones you build from that point onward? We suspected only new ships get the better parts, but we couldn't be sure.


All of them are upgraded. You only ever have one ship design of each type.

Quote:
-When there are multiple battles to be fought, who decides the order? We let the start player decide.


They are fought in order of descending hex number [outer ring first, then in].

Quote:
-Where do you put the damage cubes when a ship has been damaged? Next to the plastic ship, or the ship on your mat? To be clear, we put the cubes next to the player's cat, but we then had the problem of the cats moving away from the cubes.


[Yeah, cats will do that. ]

If the ship is damaged, but not destroyed, you place the cubes next to the mini.

You can't put it next to the mat, as that design might represent more than one model.

Quote:
So we houseruled that a single hit will destroy any ship.


You just broke the game.

Quote:
-Extra hull pieces seem really underpowered, since a single hit will destroy anything.


Quite. Fix your houserule.

Quote:
Also the Antimatter Cannon is way too weak and overcosted, so we houseruled that it can hit on any roll.


It's pretty devastating once you know that a ship takes more than one hit to kill.

Quote:
-The rulebook lists various setups for the number of players, but how can you tell how many players you have? We just rolled a six-sided die, but sometimes it comes up a 1.
-The game needs a solo variant.
-It's completely unrealistic that missiles would only fire once--can't the tubes be reloaded? We houseruled that they can fire every other round.
-Missiles are way too strong.
-Why bother fighting? All that might happen is you lose a ship and gain victory points. But that seems like a terrible trade, since ships let you fight battles all throughout the game and VPs only help you at the end of the game to win. We houseruled that the first player to win a fight will win the game at the end of turn 9.

Thanks for any help! The game seems great, but the rules could use a lot of work.


Ah shit. You got me. I'll leave my in-progress replies since I'm an honest guy.
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lol

Edit: You nearly got me, too. I already started to write an answer .
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David Neumann
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NateStraight wrote:

Ah shit. You got me. I'll leave my in-progress replies since I'm an honest guy.


I did the same thing....well done.
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Matt Shinners
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Gyges wrote:
Some friends and I played for the first time last night and we had the following questions.

-Does it cost any resources to take new ship parts? And do all of your ships get upgraded, or merely the ones you build from that point onward? We suspected only new ships get the better parts, but we couldn't be sure.

No cost - the cost is for the technology, but parts are free. All ships get the benefit of the new part - the blueprint is the design of everything.
Quote:

-When there are multiple battles to be fought, who decides the order? We let the start player decide.


If they're all in the same hex, you fight in the reverse order of who entered the hex. So Player A started in the hex, B moves in, then C moves in. C and B fight, then the winner fights A.

If it's multiple hexes, you fight in the order that people moved into the hexes. So C moves in to a hex, then B moves into another hex. C fights first, then B fights.

Quote:

-Where do you put the damage cubes when a ship has been damaged? Next to the plastic ship, or the ship on your mat? To be clear, we put the cubes next to the player's cat, but we then had the problem of the cats moving away from the cubes. So we houseruled that a single hit will destroy any ship.


Cats?

You can put the cubes wherever you want to make it easiest for you to remember it. I don't believe there's an official place. However, I usually put them behind the ship taking damage.

It does only take 1 hit to destroy a ship without a hull. Each hull (star in a circle) adds one hit.

Quote:

-Extra hull pieces seem really underpowered, since a single hit will destroy anything. Also the Antimatter Cannon is way too weak and overcosted, so we houseruled that it can hit on any roll.


That's not much of a question.

However, each hull 'absorbs' a hit. I don't believe you're playing the rule correctly. If something has 2 hulls, it takes 3 hits to destroy it. It's actually pretty powerful.

As far as the Antimatter Cannon goes, some people agree that it's underpowered. However, it rips through stuff when it hits, so I personally disagree.

Quote:

-The rulebook lists various setups for the number of players, but how can you tell how many players you have? We just rolled a six-sided die, but sometimes it comes up a 1.


Hmm, this makes me think you're a troll.

If not, you count using your fingers. Unless you're genetically interesting, you shouldn't need to go to toes.

Quote:

-The game needs a solo variant.


Just play it without opponents and count up your points.

Quote:

-It's completely unrealistic that missiles would only fire once--can't the tubes be reloaded? We houseruled that they can fire every other round.


I think of it as the ships depleting their stocks, since they're supposed to represent fleets. They're pretty powerful without them firing every other turn; I think that would severely unbalance the game.

Quote:

-Missiles are way too strong.


Another troll sign...sigh...

But there's been a lot of discussion about this. If you feel this way, I question your decision to house rule them to be stronger.

Quote:

-Why bother fighting? All that might happen is you lose a ship and gain victory points. But that seems like a terrible trade, since ships let you fight battles all throughout the game and VPs only help you at the end of the game to win. We houseruled that the first player to win a fight will win the game at the end of turn 9.


Well, I'm in too deep at this point, so I guess I'll answer these shenanigans. Ships can get you VPs, which let you win the game. You can always build more.

Quote:

Thanks for any help! The game seems great, but the rules could use a lot of work.


It helps if you read them.
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Jonathan Ramundi
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Nice troll thread. But I will seriously respond to one particular part of it:

NateStraight wrote:
Gyges wrote:
Where do you put the damage cubes when a ship has been damaged? Next to the plastic ship, or the ship on your mat? To be clear, we put the cubes next to the player's cat, but we then had the problem of the cats moving away from the cubes.


[Yeah, cats will do that. ]

If the ship is damaged, but not destroyed, you place the cubes next to the mini.

You can't put it next to the mat, as that design might represent more than one model.


We just put the cubes on the Hull points on the ship blueprint.

1) Hexes can get cluttered enough as it is.

2) 99% of the time, you'll want to finish off an enemy ship before damaging another.
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Geoff Hall
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Good, although you laid it on a little thick at the end there
 
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MattShinners wrote:
Gyges wrote:
Some friends and I played for the first time last night and we had the following questions.

-Does it cost any resources to take new ship parts? And do all of your ships get upgraded, or merely the ones you build from that point onward? We suspected only new ships get the better parts, but we couldn't be sure.

No cost - the cost is for the technology, but parts are free. All ships get the benefit of the new part - the blueprint is the design of everything.
Quote:

-When there are multiple battles to be fought, who decides the order? We let the start player decide.


If they're all in the same hex, you fight in the reverse order of who entered the hex. So Player A started in the hex, B moves in, then C moves in. C and B fight, then the winner fights A.

If it's multiple hexes, you fight in the order that people moved into the hexes. So C moves in to a hex, then B moves into another hex. C fights first, then B fights.

Quote:

-Where do you put the damage cubes when a ship has been damaged? Next to the plastic ship, or the ship on your mat? To be clear, we put the cubes next to the player's cat, but we then had the problem of the cats moving away from the cubes. So we houseruled that a single hit will destroy any ship.


Cats?

You can put the cubes wherever you want to make it easiest for you to remember it. I don't believe there's an official place. However, I usually put them behind the ship taking damage.

It does only take 1 hit to destroy a ship without a hull. Each hull (star in a circle) adds one hit.

Quote:

-Extra hull pieces seem really underpowered, since a single hit will destroy anything. Also the Antimatter Cannon is way too weak and overcosted, so we houseruled that it can hit on any roll.


That's not much of a question.

However, each hull 'absorbs' a hit. I don't believe you're playing the rule correctly. If something has 2 hulls, it takes 3 hits to destroy it. It's actually pretty powerful.

As far as the Antimatter Cannon goes, some people agree that it's underpowered. However, it rips through stuff when it hits, so I personally disagree.

Quote:

-The rulebook lists various setups for the number of players, but how can you tell how many players you have? We just rolled a six-sided die, but sometimes it comes up a 1.


Hmm, this makes me think you're a troll.

If not, you count using your fingers. Unless you're genetically interesting, you shouldn't need to go to toes.

Quote:

-The game needs a solo variant.


Just play it without opponents and count up your points.

Quote:

-It's completely unrealistic that missiles would only fire once--can't the tubes be reloaded? We houseruled that they can fire every other round.


I think of it as the ships depleting their stocks, since they're supposed to represent fleets. They're pretty powerful without them firing every other turn; I think that would severely unbalance the game.

Quote:

-Missiles are way too strong.


Another troll sign...sigh...

But there's been a lot of discussion about this. If you feel this way, I question your decision to house rule them to be stronger.

Quote:

-Why bother fighting? All that might happen is you lose a ship and gain victory points. But that seems like a terrible trade, since ships let you fight battles all throughout the game and VPs only help you at the end of the game to win. We houseruled that the first player to win a fight will win the game at the end of turn 9.


Well, I'm in too deep at this point, so I guess I'll answer these shenanigans. Ships can get you VPs, which let you win the game. You can always build more.

Quote:

Thanks for any help! The game seems great, but the rules could use a lot of work.


It helps if you read them.


Owned
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Dan Moore
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Gyges wrote:
Some friends and I played for the first time last night and we had the following questions.

A-Does it cost any resources to take new ship parts? And do all of your ships get upgraded, or merely the ones you build from that point onward? We suspected only new ships get the better parts, but we couldn't be sure.
B-When there are multiple battles to be fought, who decides the order? We let the start player decide.
C-Where do you put the damage cubes when a ship has been damaged? Next to the plastic ship, or the ship on your mat? To be clear, we put the cubes next to the player's cat, but we then had the problem of the cats moving away from the cubes. So we houseruled that a single hit will destroy any ship.
D-Extra hull pieces seem really underpowered, since a single hit will destroy anything. Also the Antimatter Cannon is way too weak and overcosted, so we houseruled that it can hit on any roll.
E-The rulebook lists various setups for the number of players, but how can you tell how many players you have? We just rolled a six-sided die, but sometimes it comes up a 1.
F-The game needs a solo variant.
G-It's completely unrealistic that missiles would only fire once--can't the tubes be reloaded? We houseruled that they can fire every other round.
H-Missiles are way too strong.
I-Why bother fighting? All that might happen is you lose a ship and gain victory points. But that seems like a terrible trade, since ships let you fight battles all throughout the game and VPs only help you at the end of the game to win. We houseruled that the first player to win a fight will win the game at the end of turn 9.

Thanks for any help! The game seems great, but the rules could use a lot of work.


It seems like you guys have done a lot of work already.

A: You can, without spending further resources, follow the rules and both place any part you have on any ship blueprint, built or yet unbuilt, you like. You may tear out any number parts you like, but only place two different parts into your blueprints per upgrade action. You may upgrade all of your blueprints with those parts, however.

B: The rules state that battles happen in ascending order of hex numbers, which are sequential.

C: The cat? Really? Of course it moved, that is a cat all over. I'd say anywhere convenient. Maybe take the ships out of the hex, and cluster hits/ship as you like.

D: You've got the rule governing hull points wrong. Hulls soak up hits. About antimatter cannon, it would follow that they are very good, potentially, against heavily armored ships.

E: Ummm . . . count them?

F: You've got a good start on rules variants, get cracking on your own solo version and get back to us.

G & H: You made the overpowered missiles More useful? That's a headscratcher.

I: Why bother playing past that first fight, then? But this very question came up just today, check it out:

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/8284140#8284140
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Mark Bigney
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Okay, I thought it would be almost immediately apparent that I was making fun of some of the other rules queries here. The fact that they sounded vaguely credible is a rather damning indictment.
I am sorry for wasting the time of people trying to be helpful.
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Dan Moore
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Gyges wrote:
Okay, I thought it would be almost immediately apparent that I was making fun of some of the other rules queries here. The fact that they sounded vaguely credible is a rather damning indictment.
I am sorry for wasting the time of people trying to be helpful.


Who know, someone's going to find this thread useful.

The cat bit ought really have tipped me off. But your serious bits were . . . Well, kudos to get us all to rise. If you've a genuine interest in Why We Fight check out the link I referenced.
 
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Jotora wrote:
Nice troll thread. But I will seriously respond to one particular part of it:

NateStraight wrote:
Gyges wrote:
Where do you put the damage cubes when a ship has been damaged? Next to the plastic ship, or the ship on your mat? To be clear, we put the cubes next to the player's cat, but we then had the problem of the cats moving away from the cubes.


[Yeah, cats will do that. ]

If the ship is damaged, but not destroyed, you place the cubes next to the mini.

You can't put it next to the mat, as that design might represent more than one model.


We just put the cubes on the Hull points on the ship blueprint.

1) Hexes can get cluttered enough as it is.

2) 99% of the time, you'll want to finish off an enemy ship before damaging another.


We just pull all the ships off the hex and set them on the table (usually the person in the fight takes theirs and lines them up in front of them). Then, after the battle, put the ships still alive back on the hex.

Then, there is plenty of room for cubes next to the ships.
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Peter O
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I find my cat heads towards the cubes. Then the cubes head away from the cat. This is not a problem because then the cat heads towards the cube again. Followed by the cube ...
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Jonathan Ramundi
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Neumannium wrote:
Jotora wrote:
Nice troll thread. But I will seriously respond to one particular part of it:

NateStraight wrote:
Gyges wrote:
Where do you put the damage cubes when a ship has been damaged? Next to the plastic ship, or the ship on your mat? To be clear, we put the cubes next to the player's cat, but we then had the problem of the cats moving away from the cubes.


[Yeah, cats will do that. ]

If the ship is damaged, but not destroyed, you place the cubes next to the mini.

You can't put it next to the mat, as that design might represent more than one model.


We just put the cubes on the Hull points on the ship blueprint.

1) Hexes can get cluttered enough as it is.

2) 99% of the time, you'll want to finish off an enemy ship before damaging another.


We just pull all the ships off the hex and set them on the table (usually the person in the fight takes theirs and lines them up in front of them). Then, after the battle, put the ships still alive back on the hex.

Then, there is plenty of room for cubes next to the ships.
Yeah, but what if you're lacking table space as it is?
 
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Some friends and I played for the first time last night and we had the following questions.

-Does it cost any resources to take new ship parts? And do all of your ships get upgraded, or merely the ones you build from that point onward? We suspected only new ships get the better parts, but we couldn't be sure.

**Absolutely correct. The way you keep track of this is to use the damage tokens to mark the unupgraded ships.**

-When there are multiple battles to be fought, who decides the order? We let the start player decide.

**No, that's wrong. You look at the hexes, and the one with the most interesting battle goes last. If there's a tie, THEN the start player decides.**

-Where do you put the damage cubes when a ship has been damaged? Next to the plastic ship, or the ship on your mat? To be clear, we put the cubes next to the player's cat, but we then had the problem of the cats moving away from the cubes. So we houseruled that a single hit will destroy any ship.

**Use the damage cubes to mark the unupgraded ships and/or cats.**

-Extra hull pieces seem really underpowered, since a single hit will destroy anything. Also the Antimatter Cannon is way too weak and overcosted, so we houseruled that it can hit on any roll.

**The Antimatter cannon is perfectly balanced, that's why it's so expensive. Also, without extra hull, where will you keep all your trade goods?**

-The rulebook lists various setups for the number of players, but how can you tell how many players you have? We just rolled a six-sided die, but sometimes it comes up a 1.

**Re-roll all ones throughout the entire game.**

-The game needs a solo variant.

**I've come up with one, but then you don't need to re-roll all ones throughout the game.**

-It's completely unrealistic that missiles would only fire once--can't the tubes be reloaded? We houseruled that they can fire every other round.

**The missiles cannot fire at cannon range, and the enemy ships closed to cannon range as soon as you fired your missiles. Every other round doesn't make sense at all!**
-Missiles are way too strong.

**Try firing them every round.**

-Why bother fighting? All that might happen is you lose a ship and gain victory points. But that seems like a terrible trade, since ships let you fight battles all throughout the game and VPs only help you at the end of the game to win. We houseruled that the first player to win a fight will win the game at the end of turn 9.

**That's not a houserule, but an official variant on page 12 of the rulebook under the section titled, 'Troll variants'.**

Thanks for any help! The game seems great, but the rules could use a lot of work.

**Naw man, the game and the rules are whacko.**
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Jythier wrote:

-Missiles are way too strong.

**Try firing them every round.**


Nice.
 
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I've found this game is not at all cat friendly. If mine get near the game there are cubes, discs, ships and tokens smacked all over. It is a very poor designed game.
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you know who wrote:
I've found this game is not at all cat friendly. If mine get near the game there are cubes, discs, ships and tokens smacked all over. It is a very poor designed game.

That's a common misconception, but as you get more experience you will learn that it's the poor design decisions of "cat" that are causing the problems here.
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Oh man, I was reading those questions, and decided not to answer any, thinking the poor guy should just give the game away, and stick with Shoots & Ladders.

People answered those questions, well, sadly, because there are actually questions and comments like them already on the board. Almost scarry.

Good thing I just sighed and was going to move to a new thread.

More questions:

#1 I want to win using battle only, but I did not get much minerals on my hexes, and my dice rolled 1-3 half the time durring combat, so I lost. Luck ruined my chance to win, so I hate the game. But my friends had ideas to make me happy:

So we house ruled that we have unlimited passes on hexes when exploring, so we always get the hex we want, and that battles are automatically won by the person with more ships (reguardless of type or loadout).

Also, all RP tiles 1-3 are considered 4s.

Also, if you get a bonus tile that we feel is too powerful, any player can veto you using it, and you only get the 2 RPs. Unless you win by 1 RP, then players can un-veto that rule and you don't win (would'nt be fair after all).

The good news is everyone is finally happy now because they never get rolls/hexes/tiles/tokens they don't want, and they never feel some other player got luckier than them, or that they would lose a battle when they had the tiniest advantage. We had no raging or pouting for the entire game.

The bad news is, after our second play, in which the only player that read the rules could not teach tic-tak-toe, and all of us using alien species, this game is SO borring and predictable we can't stand it. OMG, there is no strategy to it what so ever; no action; no tension; no choices or decissions. What were they thinking! The hype was all BS!
 
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Purple Paladin wrote:
Oh man, I was reading those questions, and decided not to answer any, thinking the poor guy should just give the game away, and stick with Shoots & Ladders.

People answered those questions, well, sadly, because there are actually questions and comments like them already on the board. Almost scarry.

Good thing I just sighed and was going to move to a new thread.

More questions:

#1 I want to win using battle only, but I did not get much minerals on my hexes, and my dice rolled 1-3 half the time durring combat, so I lost. Luck ruined my chance to win, so I hate the game. But my friends had ideas to make me happy:

So we house ruled that we have unlimited passes on hexes when exploring, so we always get the hex we want, and that battles are automatically won by the person with more ships (reguardless of type or loadout).

Also, all RP tiles 1-3 are considered 4s.

Also, if you get a bonus tile that we feel is too powerful, any player can veto you using it, and you only get the 2 RPs. Unless you win by 1 RP, then players can un-veto that rule and you don't win (would'nt be fair after all).

The good news is everyone is finally happy now because they never get rolls/hexes/tiles/tokens they don't want, and they never feel some other player got luckier than them, or that they would lose a battle when they had the tiniest advantage. We had no raging or pouting for the entire game.

The bad news is, after our second play, in which the only player that read the rules could not teach tic-tak-toe, and all of us using alien species, this game is SO borring and predictable we can't stand it. OMG, there is no strategy to it what so ever; no action; no tension; no choices or decissions. What were they thinking! The hype was all BS!


Your house rule has destroyed the game. Here is how to improve it:

Don't ignore ship type. Interceptors should count as 1, Cruisers 3, Dreadnaughts 5, and Starbases 3. Add up those numbers and figure the winner of battles. The strategy becomes much more deep at this level. Also, are you eliminating any of the losing players ships, because a 1-to-1 removal is the only way to really be fair here.

As for the hexes, you really should just have a pool of all hexes of which to draw from instead of unlimited passing. This should really clear up the time issue here, but may add some A/P the first few games until the best sectors are known.

RP tiles could be considered 4, but I think it's a little game breaking. 3 is probably the right answer here. You should have to win some battles on the field, after all.

Adding in player decisions to this variant is just a bad idea, so you should probably remove the veto power and just make all the discovery tiles be worth 2 VP.

I think this will fix your problem and allow you to continue to play with these wonderful components for at least one (1) more time before deciding it's horribly boring this way as well.

Also, do you have a cat? Very important to gameplay in Eclipse, as shown by the above posts.
 
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He's looking real sharp in his 1940's fedora. He's got nerves of steel, an iron will, and several other metal-themed attributes. His fur is water tight and he's always up for a fight.
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He's a semi-aquatic egg-laying mammal of action. He's a furry little flat-foot who'll never flinch from a fray. He's got more than just mad skills, he's got a beaver tail and a bill.
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Thinking about it further, I think the best way to have luckless combat is just to bring combat down to 6ths of damage points and go with the odds... base, a ship needs 3/6th of a hit to destroy it... with hull, 9/6th, etc.

Then, deal damage based on the odds. An interceptor with no upgrades deals 1/6 damage each time it fires. So 5 unupgraded interceptors would defeat an ancient, losing 1 interceptor. With 1 hull, 3 could defeat an ancient without losses.

The hardest part is splitting those tiny damage cubes into 6 pieces of equal size and shape.
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