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Subject: mixing different decks for occupations and minor improvements rss

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John blog
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A newbie question:

IS there problems that I should be aware of in mixing the E/I/ K decks or with any other expansion decks?
 
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Attila Kisvári
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no, play as you like
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Buz
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Not really; they are pretty balanced with each other. The E deck tends to have more straightforward abilities (with some exceptions, of course) but there's no balance issues outside of a card here and there that people quibble about (like Wooden Hut Extension).

You do need to be careful that you use the Occupations designated for that player number. 4+ player Occupations in a 3-player game wouldn't work.
 
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Benjamin Kerenza
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There are no major issues no but you will change the interactions of some cards like the roads for example but no one seems to have any problem with this.
 
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John blog
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thanks guys!
 
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Tibs
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bjwells wrote:
There are no major issues no but you will change the interactions of some cards like the roads for example but no one seems to have any problem with this.


I have major problems with roads dilution. If you're using anything but the I deck alone, the three "road" cards completely lose their risk-reward mechanic.

The Fisherman card also gets less risky when you mix more decks, but it's not enough to significantly change the card's dynamic.
 
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Derakon Derakon
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Basically any card that keys off of other cards will be changed if you mix the decks together. The roads are the most obvious example, but there are also cards that change the costs of specific other cards (e.g. Thatcher), cards that can be played for free when other cards show up (e.g. Chief's Daughter), and so on. Sometimes this doesn't make a big difference (Thatcher is still useful because its primary use is reducing the cost to expand and renovate your home), sometimes it is significant (the roads).
 
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James Klemm
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kungfro wrote:
bjwells wrote:
There are no major issues no but you will change the interactions of some cards like the roads for example but no one seems to have any problem with this.


I have major problems with roads dilution. If you're using anything but the I deck alone, the three "road" cards completely lose their risk-reward mechanic.

The Fisherman card also gets less risky when you mix more decks, but it's not enough to significantly change the card's dynamic.


The rewards of the roads are still somewhat in line with existing cards like Rake, Clogs, Pottery and the Well.
 
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Tibs
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MisterBond wrote:
The rewards of the roads are still somewhat in line with existing cards like Rake, Clogs, Pottery and the Well.


Completely disagree. Wooden Path is effectively 1 Wood for 2 victory points. Without that high risk of being upped by a better path, that is far too big of a reward. Even the Clay Path gives too much.

Obviously, the only one that is universally fair is the one that's meant to best them all: the Paved Road. But if you leave that one in and take the others out, what's the point?
 
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Matt Shields
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kungfro wrote:
MisterBond wrote:
The rewards of the roads are still somewhat in line with existing cards like Rake, Clogs, Pottery and the Well.


Completely disagree. Wooden Path is effectively 1 Wood for 2 victory points. Without that high risk of being upped by a better path, that is far too big of a reward. Even the Clay Path gives too much.

Obviously, the only one that is universally fair is the one that's meant to best them all: the Paved Road. But if you leave that one in and take the others out, what's the point?


I don't think it's as bad as you make it out.

I agree that 1 wood for two points is a very good deal, but it's still two dead points that don't otherwise do anything. It's better than Clogs or Rake (but then Rake is usually kind of terrible), but I still think I'd rather spend my 1 wood on a Fish Trap or something else that's actually productive than just having 2 points.

Clay path I think is about right. It's an almost guaranteed 3 points for 3 clay. It's cheaper than Pottery but it's also not as good.

The paved road I think is a terrible card. 4 points for 5 stone is not a good deal. Even if my opponent already had another road in play - so that it's effectively 5 stone for 6 points - that's still not very good.

I've certainly been in games where I had so much stone that I wished I had it, but most of the time I have better uses for 5 stone than this. The Well is cheaper, is worth the same number of points, and gives me 5 food. No, Paved road is just awful.
 
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Tibs
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The Madonna Statue is another minor that gives 2VP and does nothing, but it costs you two improvements to build (as in, discard them from in front of you). One wood is undoubtedly less costly than two improvements.
 
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J
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My old game group traditionally did each player got 9 cards from e i and k and selected 7 to play with. Tibs is right that roads were usually safe plays but on more than one occasion someone played the wooden road early to be out done by a better road.

Hence people usually waited till almost the last turn to play their road when it was safer.

That being said starting with the clay path and the paved path in your hand is pretty sweet in since the paved path can be 1 of your two returns with little downside.

TwitchBot wrote:

The paved road I think is a terrible card. 4 points for 5 stone is not a good deal. Even if my opponent already had another road in play - so that it's effectively 5 stone for 6 points - that's still not very good.

I don't think it's as bad as you make it out to be. It gives you about the same value as remodeling your clay house to a stone house (1 point per stone + 1 extra reed/stone).

True it would be better early on to get the well if you can but the paved road is a great last turn card if you can get the stone.

kungfro wrote:
The Madonna Statue is another minor that gives 2VP and does nothing, but it costs you two improvements to build (as in, discard them from in front of you). One wood is undoubtedly less costly than two improvements.


Well it really depends on what improvements you have. Plows for example are great to return or cards that place resources on the board. Also the Madonna is obviously guaranteed points where as long as you make sure all players get some cards from the decks the path is not.

Like I said it's true that in our games paths were more safe but there were times where a person got burned playing a wood path too early.

 
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Tibs
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allstar64 wrote:
Also the Madonna is obviously guaranteed points where as long as you make sure all players get some cards from the decks the path is not.

My entire point is that when you use enough decks (in my opinion, anything other than I), the risk of a wooden path getting outdone shrinks to such a low chance that there actually is no risk involved anymore. The vast majority of the time you'll get the bonus points except for a fluke. That's not risk, and that's not the intention of the "three roads" mechanic.
 
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Mike T
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Yes, diluting the decks does make Wooden Path significantly stronger. So what. It's hardly game-breaking.

The Clay Path gets both stronger (less likely to be trumped) and weaker (less likely to trump an opponent). I think this balances out, particularly when you remember that the Paved Road is bad enough that the Clay Path is unlikely to be trumped even in an I-only game.

The Pave Road gets weaker than it would otherwise be, but it is always terrible. Making a terrible card worse doesn't change much.

So, while diluting the roads definitely weakens the mechanic, it doesn't really have any negative game balance effects. I think the huge variety of interesting interactions offered by mixing the decks greatly outweighs the weakening of the road mechanic.
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Tibs
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So what is that Wooden Path no longer offers a fair reward. Additionally, the fun of the roads is the risk element. With more expansions mixed in, that evaporates.

I'm not saying don't mix all the decks. I'm saying, mix them all but remove the three roads.
 
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Mike T
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But my point is that the reward for Wooden Path is always fair. Even if you could be 100% certain that Clay Path and Paved Road won't be played, Wooden Path is merely very good, not great. There are many minors that are much stronger. There is no game balance reason to ever remove the roads.

I also agree that the fun element is reduced. Without the risk factor, they are pretty boring cards, it's true. There are a lot of pretty boring cards, though, so I don't think that's a good reason to remove them either. Also, the rarity of the interaction actually makes it more fun when it does happen.
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Matt Shields
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In fairness I guess the other reason I don't really worry about the road issue, is that almost all of my games are drafts. This means that usually I already know if there are other roads in world, since they don't tend to get drafted as one of the first couple cards. This kind of lessens the risk involved in playing roads anyway.

I suppose if the games I played were mostly straight deal 7, I might feel differently.
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