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Subject: Having a bit of trouble with the clarity of the rule book rss

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Andrew C
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The use [of] random PUNCTUATION --> AND **capitals** and... BOLDING; and @6.5 (a) 4.3 numeration; makes absolutely lack meaning of grammer non-sensical! (Exception must use green cube to move except when you use a red one);

It's like they hired GROGS to write their rule book, except that I can understand Grogs much more easily. Worse still, their FAQ is written in the same style and isn't very clear.

A another note, the Panzer IV and Sherman probably shouldn't have higher firepower and stronger armor than a Panther... Is that just an error in using the wrong silhouette on the military unit sheet?

Sorry all, nevermind me, I'm getting to be a true grumbling grognard in my dotage.
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suPUR DUEper
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Re: Worst...rules...EVAR
Should be CAPITALS and bolding.

;-)
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Kev.
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Re: Worst...rules...EVAR
might be nice to take it up with the designer first.
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Andrew C
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Re: Worst...rules...EVAR
TedW wrote:
Should be CAPITALS and bolding.

;-)


I was trying to give a sense of how the rule book reads, in a somewhat humorous and exaggerated manner. shake
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Cleitus the Black wrote:
TedW wrote:
Should be CAPITALS and bolding.

;-)


I was trying to give a sense of how the rule book reads, in a somewhat humorous and exaggerated manner. shake


You did that.
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Andrew C
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I should point out that the designer has done a great job answering my questions in this thread.
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Cleitus the Black wrote:
I should point out that the designer has done a great job answering my questions in this thread.


Do you skype?
Maybe we could get a game in via Internet.
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Andrew C
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I don't skype yet, but someone else just proposed a game on VASL and so I think I'll install and figure it out soon. I'd love to take you up on the offer!
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Judd Vance
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Cleitus the Black wrote:

It's like they hired GROGS to write their rule book, except that I can understand Grogs much more easily. Worse still, their FAQ is written in the same style and isn't very clear.


Andrew, you are way more witty than me. (Grogs -- ha ha ha ha!!!)

My comment was that it read like computer code (and I do some programming). It's rough when Empire of the Sun and it's 40 page rulebook and excessive loads of complexity was easier to figure out.

I'm of the opinion that a designer should not write the final draft. Instead, teach it to others and have them write a rough draft. Take the best of theirs and use that as the base. I don't think designers know what are the hardest parts of their games to grasp, whereas others do and will spend the appropriate amount of verbiage explaining it.

But dude, that's rough. You are way more grog than I am and have tackled far more complex games than I have. If you are having a rough time with the rules, that speaks volumes.
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Cleitus the Black wrote:
I don't skype yet, but someone else just proposed a game on VASL and so I think I'll install and figure it out soon. I'd love to take you up on the offer!


When we have sit down with a game reviewer it takes about an hour for them to learn and play a game.
This has been the case from meeting at a coffee shop to playing a nice young lady in the Netherlands.
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airjudden wrote:
Cleitus the Black wrote:

It's like they hired GROGS to write their rule book, except that I can understand Grogs much more easily. Worse still, their FAQ is written in the same style and isn't very clear.


Andrew, you are way more witty than me. (Grogs -- ha ha ha ha!!!)

My comment was that it read like computer code (and I do some programming). It's rough when Empire of the Sun and it's 40 page rulebook and excessive loads of complexity was easier to figure out.

I'm of the opinion that a designer should not write the final draft. Instead, teach it to others and have them write a rough draft. Take the best of theirs and use that as the base. I don't think designers know what are the hardest parts of their games to grasp, whereas others do and will spend the appropriate amount of verbiage explaining it.

But dude, that's rough. You are way more grog than I am and have tackled far more complex games than I have. If you are having a rough time with the rules, that speaks volumes.


Judd your comment about Engage “This game holds the distinction of having the most poorly written rules I have ever seen.”

Then you go on to review The Year of the Hangman and title it “A Great Game and a scholarly work.”

I enjoyed reading this reply from the designer most.
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/686040/a-great-game-and-a-sc...

This is where you misread the rules. It is the opposing player's hidden counters that are removed at the end of movement. Not your own. Check out my rules post for more detail.

HTH!

We are making plans to go to the West Point and Origins conventions. Hope we can cross paths and you give Engage a chance.
Best Regards,
Jack

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Judd Vance
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Actually, the designer never responded.

He's very active on ConSimWorld. I actually tried to get clarification before publishing, but I couldn't maneuver CSW to post the question (a common complaint of that website), the BGG Forum for that game is incredibly dead, so I shot a Geekmail to the #1 fan (Edward -- the guy who you are referencing) and he was on vacation when I sent it. And because it lacks a VASSAL module, there is no way of playing it with anyone else to iron out the wrinkles.

So I was left to figure it out myself, any war game worth its salt is going to have some clarification issues. The nature of the beast says that the complexity level and limits of memorization of the human brain will make it a certainty.

But with that said, 1777 has a fairly substantial rule book (16 pages, and almost no illustrations) and I missed one rule in the whole thing (and it lacks an "example of play" or any substantial online support). Only one missed rule out of a rule book of that size complexity (and that was a misread on my part) is a sign of a mighty finely written rule book -- and it really is. It's an odd duck compared to the standard wargame fare, but it is still written quite well.
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