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Subject: Is the first-round yellow card ever [i]not[/i] the best first move? rss

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Kris Rhodes
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Is the first-round yellow card ever not the best first move?
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Ken Dilloo
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Everything is relative to perception, and your perception is limited.
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The Ginger Ninja
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Yes.
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Dylan Shakespeare
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bigloo33 wrote:
Yes.

For instance, if you have no yellow dice. whistle
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Kris Rhodes
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Abstractite wrote:
bigloo33 wrote:
Yes.

For instance, if you have no yellow dice. whistle


Heh, of course one should understand the OP to be asking about situations in which he has yellow dice.

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Kris Rhodes
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bigloo33 wrote:
Yes.


Well?
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Nate S
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Speusippus wrote:
bigloo33 wrote:
Yes.


Well?

I don't understand the motivation for the question, since you haven't bothered to make any supporting statements whatsoever, and in my experience the first yellow activity card is not the best move any more often than any number of other possible actions are the best move.

My own playstyle tends toward the white activity card or the Cathedral for my first move, but certainly not every time.
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Kris Rhodes
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It's a common misconception that you need to know the motivation for a question before you can answer the question, but misconception it is.

The first responder to the OP knew he could answer the question--he said "yes"--without knowing details about its motivation. But he failed to fulfill the "helpfulness" and "informativeness" criteria for normal friendly conversation, and hence invited my reply of "well...? "

Having played a few more games since wondering about the question, I can see how it's more common than I thought that level-1 yellow isn't the best first move. But it does seem to me that if I have more than nine pips or so in yellow, no matter what other dice I have, yellow-1 is the way to go. If you don't take it, you're stuck with no money til the next round--hence no way to buy dice, and so easily shut out for the rest of the round. Also no way to get any other tradesmen for that round and possibly the next depending on dice.
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Ken Dilloo
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Everything is relative to perception, and your perception is limited.
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Yup.
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Nate S
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Speusippus wrote:
It's a common misconception that you need to know the motivation for a question before you can answer the question, but misconception it is.

Are you seriously holding a lecture on effective communication strategies after creating this thread with this OP?

I did explain why your failure to provide motivation left me with no frame of reference for helping you: I simply had no idea why you would think the that the yellow activity card is always the best first action. The response you got for the information you provided was all that could be expected.

I do not frequently use the first yellow activity card in the first round, and I do not generally find myself too cash-strapped to buy the dice I need the next round. Unless you have several citizens in the Palace or try to place multiple Tradesmen on non-monetary cards in round 1 (neither of which is usually good opening strategy IMO), I would expect the net balance of income to provide you with enough cash to survive, between the starting cash and per-round income for each of the first two rounds plus the payments from people buying your dice. What are you doing that you find you have no money for dice in round 2 without using the first yellow activity card? Are you expecting to always form groups of 3 dice? Because that's not necessary. Buying a single die for $2 or a single die for $4 is much more common.

Certainly the yellow card can be a good first action, but again, I don't find it to be "the best" first action an outsized proportion of the time.



edit: It would be awfully easy to solve your issue if this was just a rules problem: You get $5 at the start of the game. Then you get $10 income each round including the first round, from which you must pay $1 for each white die you roll and $2 for each red die. Yellow dice are free. If you're not paying out incomes in the first round, then I could see how you'd run into a situation where the yellow activity card becomes a necessity.

In general, I find it's frequently more important to seek influence above cash in the early game. Dice manipulation by spending influence is a huge factor in Troyes.
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Kris Rhodes
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ghorsche wrote:
Speusippus wrote:
It's a common misconception that you need to know the motivation for a question before you can answer the question, but misconception it is.

Are you seriously holding a lecture on effective communication strategies after creating this thread with this OP?

I did explain why your failure to provide motivation left me with no frame of reference for helping you: I simply had no idea why you would think the that the yellow activity card is always the best first action. The response you got for the information you provided was all that could be expected.


That's incorrect. The answer to the question is "yes." And it is typical, when answering a question about whether there exist instances of something in the affirmative, to provide an example or two. As I said, it's a misconception that anyone needs to know the motivation for a question before answering it. (One I do run into a lot.) The question stands on its own. It is made of small words well known to everyone in the context. It has an answer. Someone even provided it--but in a way that indicated they were pointedly, intentionally leaving out further helpful information. So I asked for it.

There is nothing whatsoever wrong with my OP. It asks exactly the question I wanted answered. And the question is perfectly well answerable. Just answer the questions or not. The metadiscussion (which you will note, was not started by me) is counterproductive and unnecessary. People pull this all the time online and I'm not inclined to let it slide.

Anyway, the rest of your comments were helpful, thanks. And it's not a rules issue, I just am not very good.

One thing is, I don't typically find people buying my dice at all during the first round. Is this abnormal?

Also, to my recollection in the first round I'd typically place a tradesman and either build the cathedral or fight an event, then start placing citizens in buildings. The tradesman costs 5, so I'm down to about five. That leaves me enough to buy one or two dice for events, cathedrals and citizens. So then, once I've done one or two of these things, I'm broke and have to pass. Meanwhile the guys who went level 1 yellow are rolling in dough, and get to place citizens and shut me out, or else get way ahead in VP and infl on events.

What seems wrong or abnormal about what I just described?

It may be relevant that I play almost only two player games.

About groups of three--I don't try to form only groups of three. But if I'm placing a tradesman on an "hourglass" action, I do try to use enough pips to last me the rest of the game, as it seems like a bad idea to have to waste turns activating the thing more than once. But maybe that's my problem. Maybe I should just activate level 1 white once if that card seems like a good thing to grab, and then feel free to activate it a few more times on future turns in future rounds. Perhaps this would give me more dice to work with in round one. (But then in a later round, I'm going to have to waste a die and turn re-activating that card for more cubes....)
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Kris Rhodes
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bigloo33 wrote:
Yup.


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Ken Dilloo
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Now, I haven't played this a ton, and only 3-4p, but it always seems that the Yellow buildings look great, but aren't the best long-term. Meaning that they might not be worth the initial investment for short term gain. There are some nice combos, using early Yellow, but usually these can be taken advantage of late, with late red and white cards.

I try not to put too much emphasis on character, but I do let that guide my initial placement, which is not typically heavy in yellow. The only exception might be the guy that gives you bonus for cash.

Either way, this game is a lot about reacting to the activity and event cards, and adjusting strategy accordingly. Someone entirely focused on an early game card combo, or short term gain, usually does well, but rarely wins.

Just my elongated two cents.
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Nate S
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Speusippus wrote:
There is nothing whatsoever wrong with my OP.

If you truly believe this then I'm afraid we have such a disagreement on etiquette - your original question with no further background can only be answered by an exhaustive Troyes strategy primer from turn 1 all the way to final scoring, something you frankly have no cause to feel entitled to - that I'd rather elect to forgo the frustration of engaging you in discussion.
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Kris Rhodes
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ghorsche wrote:
[q="Speusippus"]your original question with no further background can only be answered by an exhaustive Troyes strategy primer from turn 1 all the way to final scoring,


Haha, no way. A single example of an opening move (with some details about the situation) would suffice.

There was a whole damn lot in my post other than the the seven words you quoted, btw--the majority of it relevant to the topic of the thread even.

When come back bring constructive, helpful attitude.

On Edit: You know, I've just re-read the thread and I am genuinely befuddled by your claims here. What are some examples of questions you could ask me which you think would similarly faulty etiquette-wise compared to my OP? I.e. questions which, as you put it, can't be answered by me because I don't know what motivates them?

On further edit: This text from your first post jumps out at me:

Quote:
you haven't bothered to make any supporting statements whatsoever


"bothered to make any supporting statements." I think I get the misunderstanding now? It appears you believe I was trying to make a claim in the OP? And you were aggravated that I hadn't "bothered" to "support" that claim?

But I didn't make a claim. I asked a question. You can't support questions, much less "bother" to support them.

Does that clarify anything?
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Kris Rhodes
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bigloo33 wrote:


Just my elongated two cents.


Wait, are you trying to buy a die from me?
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Ken Dilloo
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Only if you are counting on using them, and I can gain from them. arrrh
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Darren Mac
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Speusippus wrote:
Is the first-round yellow card ever not the best first move?


Hope this doesn't incite problems....

As a third party, I thought you were making a claim here as well.

I think this may just be an 'internet thing'. Had you two been face to face, I think the discussion would have been 'all game' and not 'intent'.

On the plus side, we all enjoy this game enough to read/care/discuss

(For what its worth, I almost always go with Yellow on turn 1)
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Dylan Shakespeare
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I go mostly white, hoping for Tithing.
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Evan Stegman
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Speusippus wrote:
... I think I get the misunderstanding now? It appears you believe I was trying to make a claim in the OP? ...

darrenmac wrote:

Hope this doesn't incite problems....

As a third party, I thought you were making a claim here as well.

...


Despite their disingenuous protests that they aren't making a claim, they are.

The premise/claim of the question is that it is reasonably likely possibility that first-round yellow card is always the best move. There would be no reason to ask the question otherwise.

So the claim is that it is such reasonably likely possibility that it warrants starting a new thread and asking the question.

If the OP didn't believe that premise/claim wasn't a reasonably likely possibility, it would be nonsensical to start a new thread to ask the question.

To say that asking a question doesn't imply a claim is just not the way the language or logic works.

It would be truly bizarre behavior to ask the question if the asker didn't believe it was possible the answer was yes. People's responses are basically saying 'Why would you think that?' and the OP responds, 'I am don't think that. I am just asking if it is. Why would you think I think that?' as if it is not reasonable to assume someone asking the question thinks it is a reasonable possibility.
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Robert Zaleski
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EvanMinn wrote:
It would be truly bizarre behavior to ask the question if the asker didn't believe it was possible the answer was yes. People's responses are basically saying 'Why would you think that?' and the OP responds, 'I am don't think that. I am just asking if it is. Why would you think I think that?' as if it is not reasonable to assume someone asking the question thinks it is a reasonable possibility.


That's so awesome I want to pick 20 random games and ask random questions, like, isn't this always the best move? Or isn't Y always the worst move. Or get even more creative.
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Tony Chen
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He asked a question. What's the big deal? If you don't want to answer it don't.
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Jon
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Speusippus wrote:

There is nothing whatsoever wrong with my OP.


Disagr
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