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Subject: Shared victory? rss

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Chris Casinghino
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The rules say that the game ends when all 5 character types of a single color are touching and active. Presumably the player of that color wins.

What if it happens to both players at once?

For example, consider the following board:



(Please forgive the hastily-thrown-together image)

If it's white's turn and he activates the leftmost Monkey, both players achieve the victory condition at once. Is it a tie, or does white win?

I'm not sure if this board is achievable by the rules, but I imagine a similar situation could arise in practice.

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ccasin wrote:
The rules say that the game ends when all 5 character types of a single color are touching and active. Presumably the player of that color wins.

What if it happens to both players at once?

For example, consider the following board:



(Please forgive the hastily-thrown-together image)

If it's white's turn and he activates the leftmost Monkey, both players achieve the victory condition at once. Is it a tie, or does white win?

I'm not sure if this board is achievable by the rules, but I imagine a similar situation could arise in practice.



Good question! I don't see that covered in the rules, it just says "The game ends immediately when all 5 character types of a single color are touching and Active." I'd say that the player performing the action wins because it was their decision that connected their characters, even if it also connects the other characters. I get the feeling that most players aren't in favor of shared victory unless they are playing a cooperative game. Because it is not specifically stated though, this may need to be added to a rules FAQ.

In the example, the white player could just flip over his Alien for the victory without affecting the black player's Alien. However, if the white player's Ninja was face down and connected to the Monkey on the left that is doing the flipping, the White player would be using the one Monkey action to flip both his Alien and Ninja back up (while flipping the black player's Aline face up too). If that doesn't make sense I can make a image.

Thanks for asking!

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Bart de Vos
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meskue wrote:
ccasin wrote:
The rules say that the game ends when all 5 character types of a single color are touching and active. Presumably the player of that color wins.

What if it happens to both players at once?

For example, consider the following board:



(Please forgive the hastily-thrown-together image)

If it's white's turn and he activates the leftmost Monkey, both players achieve the victory condition at once. Is it a tie, or does white win?

I'm not sure if this board is achievable by the rules, but I imagine a similar situation could arise in practice.



Good question! I don't see that covered in the rules, it just says "The game ends immediately when all 5 character types of a single color are touching and Active." I'd say that the player performing the action wins because it was their decision that connected their characters, even if it also connects the other characters. I get the feeling that most players aren't in favor of shared victory unless they are playing a cooperative game. Because it is not specifically stated though, this may need to be added to a rules FAQ.

In the example, the white player could just flip over his Alien for the victory without affecting the black player's Alien. However, if the white player's Ninja was face down and connected to the Monkey on the left that is doing the flipping, the White player would be using the one Monkey action to flip both his Alien and Ninja back up (while flipping the black player's Aline face up too). If that doesn't make sense I can make a image.

Thanks for asking!



I think it is similar to Hive where if both queens get surrounded at the same time the result is a draw.
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Chris Casinghino
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meskue wrote:
I'd say that the player performing the action wins because it was their decision that connected their characters, even if it also connects the other characters.


Thanks for the quick replies to my rules questions!
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Moisés Solé
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I'm generally OK with draws, specially in abstracts. However, I feel that this situation would be rare enough so any ruling is OK. Why are ties so hated?
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referee wrote:
I'm generally OK with draws, specially in abstracts. However, I feel that this situation would be rare enough so any ruling is OK. Why are ties so hated?


Update: I'm discussing this with the publisher and some others to come up with the final verdict, so ignore what I said earlier for now. Feel free to share any thoughts that may help with the decision.
 
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Chris Casinghino
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meskue wrote:
Update: I'm discussing this with the publisher and some others to come up with the final verdict, so ignore what I said earlier for now. Feel free to share any thoughts that may help with the decision.


I actually think this is a little tricky to resolve with a simple rule. Saying that white wins in my example because he achieved the victory condition "as a result of his decisions" is a little vague. What if white puts the board in a state where black has achieved the victory condition? What if he does it temporarily?

I can think of three simple rules that resolve this:

1) If both players achieve the victory condition simultaneously, it's a tie.

I like draws in some games, but I'm not sure this is the best rule for FTW. I think probably there would just never be any ties - people would avoid it.

2) If both players achieve the victory condition simultaneously, the player whose turn it is wins.

This is the clearest rule I can think of that gives the outcome you intended.

3) You can only win on your turn.

I think this is a neat variant of option 2. It's a little simpler to state, but it has a side effect: a player can use his two actions to move through an intermediate state where the other player achieved the victory condition. This seems pretty interesting to me (it would be super fun to actually do this), but I can also see the case that having to avoid these states makes for a better strategy game.
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Pablo Schulman
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ccasin wrote:




(Please forgive the hastily-thrown-together image)

If it's white's turn and he activates the leftmost Monkey, both players achieve the victory condition at once. Is it a tie, or does white win?

I'm not sure if this board is achievable by the rules, but I imagine a similar situation could arise in practice.



Hmm? why don't just refresh the alien tile? Would have the same victory without the trouble of refreshing the opponent's tile.

Regardless of this, I'd go with these rules:

If in any time, a player achieves the victory condition he is the winner (so a player can win on another player turn)

If both players achieve victory conditions on a given player's turn, the player whose turn is loses, conceding victory.
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Nim Chimpsky
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I haven't played the game, but I like the idea of a tie.

That way it becomes a viable strategy to prevent an opponent's outright win by making his/her potentially winning action also give you a co-win/tie. Whether this would lead to stalemates or not, I don't know (because I haven't played the game).

If/when the game expands to 3-4 players, I also like the idea that there can be multiple winners and losers.
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Just to add to the controversy, should a game allow ties when it's titled For the Win?
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Moisés Solé
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Yes. Yes, it should.
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Andy Latto
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meskue wrote:
referee wrote:
I'm generally OK with draws, specially in abstracts. However, I feel that this situation would be rare enough so any ruling is OK. Why are ties so hated?


Update: I'm discussing this with the publisher and some others to come up with the final verdict, so ignore what I said earlier for now. Feel free to share any thoughts that may help with the decision.

Six months later, are you still discussing this? Isn't it time to finish the discussion and make a ruling?
 
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Sorry for the delay, here is the rule decision:

The game ends immediately when the active player performs an action that causes all 5 character types of his color to connect. These tiles must be active (face up) to be considered connected. Even if this action results in multiple players meeting the winning condition, the player performing the action is the sole winner.
 
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Note: If the active player connects all 5 characters types of another player's without connecting his own, the other player wins immediately (even though it is not his turn). However, this would be very silly to do in the first place... so don't do it.
 
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