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Subject: 1000 Days without a Budget rss

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Rich Shipley
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The video is full of the usual lies.

You have to blame the whole Senate, not just Democrats. Republicans filibuster everything that isn't an emergency (including budgets).
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Well, they've still managed to spend money without official budgets. Sounds to me like they've just managed to streamline the government and reduce paperwork.
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rshipley wrote:
The video is full of the usual lies.

You have to blame the whole Senate, not just Democrats. Republicans filibuster everything that isn't an emergency (including budgets).


Only because those jerks across the aisle won't simply roll over and acquiesce to their every demand! What else are they supposed to do? Everyone knows that representative democracy only functions when two diametrically opposed parties refuse to compromise on anything for fear of appearing ideologically weak. Even better if the minority party can avoid even having to vote on anything by overusing an antiquated and embarrassing point of parliamentary procedure. That's just how government works!
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
rshipley wrote:
The video is full of the usual lies.

You have to blame the whole Senate, not just Democrats. Republicans filibuster everything that isn't an emergency (including budgets).


Only because those jerks across the aisle won't simply roll over and acquiesce to their every demand! What else are they supposed to do? Everyone knows that representative democracy only functions when two diametrically opposed parties refuse to compromise on anything for fear of appearing ideologically weak. Even better if the minority party can avoid even having to vote on anything by overusing an antiquated and embarrassing point of parliamentary procedure. That's just how government works!


Well, you know... if my wife wants to live in LA.. I want to live in Chicago, and we settle in the very middle... neither of us are happy and we might not be able to find a job in the middle of the Utah desert.

 
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bjlillo wrote:
The excuse-mongering and rationalization of your party's failure is strong in this group. I'm impressed.


Can we get you on the record approving of the filibuster as a means to hold up the process of government, BJ? I just want to be sure we're on the same page later if the Democrats start using the filibuster as aggressively as "your party" has for the past few years.
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Dave G
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bippi wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
rshipley wrote:
The video is full of the usual lies.

You have to blame the whole Senate, not just Democrats. Republicans filibuster everything that isn't an emergency (including budgets).


Only because those jerks across the aisle won't simply roll over and acquiesce to their every demand! What else are they supposed to do? Everyone knows that representative democracy only functions when two diametrically opposed parties refuse to compromise on anything for fear of appearing ideologically weak. Even better if the minority party can avoid even having to vote on anything by overusing an antiquated and embarrassing point of parliamentary procedure. That's just how government works!


Well, you know... if my wife wants to live in LA.. I want to live in Chicago, and we settle in the very middle... neither of us are happy and we might not be able to find a job in the middle of the Utah desert.



That's true. But if the alternative is that you're homeless, I bet you'd make do.
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Rich Shipley
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bjlillo wrote:
The excuse-mongering and rationalization of your party's failure is strong in this group. I'm impressed.


Good job not adressing the points raised. Keep those blinders on!
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
bippi wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
rshipley wrote:
The video is full of the usual lies.

You have to blame the whole Senate, not just Democrats. Republicans filibuster everything that isn't an emergency (including budgets).


Only because those jerks across the aisle won't simply roll over and acquiesce to their every demand! What else are they supposed to do? Everyone knows that representative democracy only functions when two diametrically opposed parties refuse to compromise on anything for fear of appearing ideologically weak. Even better if the minority party can avoid even having to vote on anything by overusing an antiquated and embarrassing point of parliamentary procedure. That's just how government works!


Well, you know... if my wife wants to live in LA.. I want to live in Chicago, and we settle in the very middle... neither of us are happy and we might not be able to find a job in the middle of the Utah desert.



That's true. But if the alternative is that you're homeless, I bet you'd make do.


At least move to Denver.
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David C
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bjlillo wrote:
The excuse-mongering and rationalization of your party's failure is strong in this group. I'm impressed.


I'm sure it would get to a vote in the house, whatever the senate came up with. That Boehner is a nice guy.
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Um, if the Senate doesn't pass a budget, why is only one party party to blame exactly?
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Moshe Callen
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bjlillo wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Um, if the Senate doesn't pass a budget, why is only one party party to blame exactly?


They've been given budgets from the other party and refuse to even present one of their own. Then the President presents a budget so laughable that it doesn't even get a single vote in the Senate. They've shown that they are totally incompetent and unconcerned about passing a budget and have a record of futility to prove it.

I'm not saying you're wrong, because frankly I don't know but it sounds so ludicrous can you provide a link or something just to reassure me you're not distorting facts here? It's dumb enough to be true but...
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Rich Shipley
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bjlillo wrote:
This failure is on the Democrats alone and their rigid opposition to anything resembling a reasonable compromise.


Now you've made a funny.
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bjlillo wrote:
This failure is on the Democrats alone and their rigid opposition to anything resembling a reasonable compromise.


LOL
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Dave G
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Still waiting....

djgutierrez77 wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
The excuse-mongering and rationalization of your party's failure is strong in this group. I'm impressed.


Can we get you on the record approving of the filibuster as a means to hold up the process of government, BJ? I just want to be sure we're on the same page later if the Democrats start using the filibuster as aggressively as "your party" has for the past few years.
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Rich Shipley
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Did some digging into Senate procedure. Budgets are one of a few items that cannot technically be filibustered. The problem is that the budget by itself is fairly meaningless at this point since the bills that spend the money in the budget are always being filibustered.

So it appears that the process of budgeting and then spending the money budgeted has been replaced by last minute brinksmanship for each spending measure to keep the government running.

I guess you can blame Senate Democrats for not passing a budget that won't be implemented, but it seems that they have given up on this symbolic process and now just concentrate on the spending bill battles.
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Dave G
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bjlillo wrote:
rshipley wrote:
Did some digging into Senate procedure. Budgets are one of a few items that cannot technically be filibustered. The problem is that the budget by itself is fairly meaningless at this point since the bills that spend the money in the budget are always being filibustered.

So it appears that the process of budgeting and then spending the money budgeted has been replaced by last minute brinksmanship for each spending measure to keep the government running.

I guess you can blame Senate Democrats for not passing a budget that won't be implemented, but it seems that they have given up on this symbolic process and now just concentrate on the spending bill battles.


That's lovely Rich. So to sum up, you're saying that it's completely the Democrats in the Senate who have failed to get a budget for the last 1000 days. I'll await your apology with bated breath.


Do you really think it's all one side's fault with no culpability to the other side?
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bjlillo wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
Do you really think it's all one side's fault with no culpability to the other side?


The Republicans in the House have passed multiple budgets in that time. The Democrats in the Senate have failed to even bring one of their own to the floor. I'm not sure how an honest person could come to any other conclusion.


Measures like this, are masturbatory at best and I'm proud of Harry Reid for not wasting his breath and if nothing else, pissing off at least two republicans in Wisconsin.

http://www.npr.org/2011/05/26/136690509/ryan-shows-little-ro...

Sure, it might make you feel good... but you're really just screwing yourself and making a mess.


EDIT: To reiterate here. If I pull down my pants, and crap on a desk. Magic marker in the words 'budget' and point at it, does it count as a budget? Because if you claim that doesn't count, the republicans haven't submitted a budget either.

http://www.tnr.com/blog/jonathan-chait/86413/path-prosperity...
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Kelsey Rinella
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Stupid question: how does the legislative branch have the authority to hand some of its responsibilities to the executive? Budgets are laws, right? How is a law requiring the president to propose a law constitutional?
 
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stpauler wrote:
2008 Federal Budget:
With projected receipts significantly less than projected outlays, the budget proposed by President Bush predicts a net deficit of approximately 240 billion dollars, adding to a United States governmental debt of about $10.8 trillion.


First, I'm not sure where you're pulling numbers from. The debt at the conclusion of the 2008 FY was just over $10 trillion. The debt at the conclusion of the 2009 FY was just under $12 trillion. The fiscal year runs from 10/1 of the preceding year (so the 2008 budget starts in 10/2007) and runs through 9/30 so if you're looking at figures based on 12/31, that's actually not an accurate reflection of the budget year.

Second, the Bush administration regularly left lots of items off the budget and funded them through emergency appropriations. This let them report a BS budget deficit number. The actual debt added during the 2008 fiscal year totaled $1 trillion. Similarly, the actual debt increase for the 2009 budget was $1.9 trillion, of which $1.5 trillion was approved and signed during the Bush administration (against an official deficit figure of $400 billion). Even if you pull out the stimulus passed under Mr. Bush, the real debt increase for the year was $1-1.1 trillion.

I don't believe you're making an argument that Pres. Bush was somehow more fiscally responsible than Pres. Obama, but if you are then the above is really, really important. People often try presenting Bush's deficit figures against the budget as being in any way meaningful. With the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and defense spending in general often being handled as "emergency appropriations" (among with other items) rather than budget line items, they're closer to Alice in Wonderland than reality.
 
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bippi wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
rshipley wrote:
The video is full of the usual lies.

You have to blame the whole Senate, not just Democrats. Republicans filibuster everything that isn't an emergency (including budgets).


Only because those jerks across the aisle won't simply roll over and acquiesce to their every demand! What else are they supposed to do? Everyone knows that representative democracy only functions when two diametrically opposed parties refuse to compromise on anything for fear of appearing ideologically weak. Even better if the minority party can avoid even having to vote on anything by overusing an antiquated and embarrassing point of parliamentary procedure. That's just how government works!


Well, you know... if my wife wants to live in LA.. I want to live in Chicago, and we settle in the very middle... neither of us are happy and we might not be able to find a job in the middle of the Utah desert.



Have you LOOKED at a map lately?
 
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bjlillo wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
Do you really think it's all one side's fault with no culpability to the other side?


The Republicans in the House have passed multiple budgets in that time. The Democrats in the Senate have failed to even bring one of their own to the floor. I'm not sure how an honest person could come to any other conclusion.


Why are you giving anyone any credit for passing a bill that stands zero chance of actually becoming a law at all? I mean, really - if government is going to work, then it shouldn't be about "They introduced a bill." It should be about "They got a bill signed into law."

I mean, if I get my senator to introduce a bill that fully nationalizes all health care, what precisely is the point of doing so when it stands zero chance of passing?

The budget impasse only reflects poorly on one side or the other if you want to play partisan games. If you're actually interested in getting a budget passed and dealing with the issues that face the nation, then factoring the Republican attitudes towards fiscal policy into the equation is not only appropriate, it should be required. Combine Republican intransigence with relatively ineffective Democratic leadership and you get a mess that nobody seems to be particularly focused on cleaning up.

Nobody deserves any credit for the current state of affairs. And shame on the Republicans/conservatives if they take such a silly partisan stance. Particularly when their own track record on fiscal issues is so abysmal.
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Rich Shipley
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bjlillo wrote:
That's lovely Rich. So to sum up, you're saying that it's completely the Democrats in the Senate who have failed to get a budget for the last 1000 days. I'll await your apology with bated breath.


I don't think I owe you any kind of apology. The video is still full of the usual lies. What else would you expect from partisan propaganda? I'd be embarrased to present anything like that as fact from either side.

The Senate can't "get a budget". They could go through the excersize of passing their version of a budget that:

a) would have no chance of passing the House,
b) the House leadership would refuse to use as a basis for negotiation, and
c) Has no effect since the spending bills are going to be filibustered anyway.

The budget process has been broken by the partisan fighting along with much else in our government. Any ideas to help that?
 
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bjlillo wrote:
The Republicans in the House have passed multiple budgets in that time.


It's awfully convenient that the chamber of Congress that doesn't have filibuster rules in place managed to pass a budget, while the chamber that does have said rules didn't. It is also awfully convenient that you have decided that, since the House budget wasn't passed into law, the Republicans deserve credit for it for some reason.

The House budget is never going to be a factor in any way, shape or form, but you're willing to give it props because that's the arbitrary and meaningless line you've chosen. Good, but don't act like anybody else should be bound by said arbitrary definition.
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rshipley wrote:
The Senate can't "get a budget". They could go through the excersize of passing their version of a budget that:


Except it wouldn't pass in the first place. To even get the budget in motion, you need a concurrent resolution (both houses) that instructs various committees what targets they're expected to hit. That effort can be filibustered, but any bills that arise as a result of the reports from the committees are covered by reconciliation rules and cannot be. At least, that's my understanding of the arcane rules of the filibuster in the Senate.

The senate doesn't have a budget because of both parties, not just one. And the House passing a bunch of turds that don't allow any negotiation, don't reflect any sort of compromise, and don't demonstrate that they're actually interested in solving the problem is stupid and partisan. Worse, when there appeared to be an actual compromise on cuts & taxes for the debt ceiling, the Republican leadership caved to the extreme wing of their party rather than actually get something done that would move us in the right direction and backed away from the negotiated compromise (which were 70% cuts, 30% taxes).
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Budgets? We don't need no stinkin' budgets!
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