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No Retreat! The Russian Front» Forums » Rules

Subject: Alternate supply and Cavalry Raid #05 rss

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David Laufle
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6.2: Alternate Supply Sources;
Adjacent Units that have an Overland Supply Path
An adjacent friendly unit that can, itself, trace an Overland
Supply Path (6.1), can serve as a Supply Source.

A Given German unit 'A' is in alternate supply via a unit 'B'.
If unit B is marked with an 'Out of Supply' marker via soviet card #05 'Cavalry Raid'.

1) is unit A still in alternate supply?

Unit B can still trace an Overland Supply Path (OSP) but is marked OOS.
The assumption here was the answer is 'No', unit 'A' is no longer in supply, because the card breaks the rules and placing the marker essentially means unit 'B' cannot trace a valid OSP. But we could be wrong.

The counter argument is that the card represents a wide variety of things that only affect the target unit and the supply lines are still open to supply unit 'A'. i.e. the rule did not require a 'supplied' adjacent friendly unit, only one that has an OSP.
 
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Thomas Büttner-Zimmermann
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Since the card don't say, that the unit have to be in supply, but only that it have to be able to trace an overland supply path, which it is able to do, I'd say: Unit B can provide alternate supply to Unit A.

When I interpret action cards, I tend to override only the directly by the card affected rules. In this case: I place an OOS marker on an unit. Every rule that asks for "OOS" or a unit "in supply" will be affected by this.
 
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Almecho wrote:
Since the card don't say, that the unit have to be in supply, but only that it have to be able to trace an overland supply path, which it is able to do, I'd say: Unit B can provide alternate supply to Unit A.

Yeah, I think an extremely literal reading of this one says unit B is still a supply source, despite being out of supply.

With all the scribbling on the cards, this game is starting to look like Wiz-War:

 
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Thomas Büttner-Zimmermann
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Which scribbling? Once I know this, I can remember it.

Yes, this is a literal reading of the cards and rules, BUT since the game is very abstract (one counter beeing an army, one hex having a size of 200km across and one turn beeing 2 months) I think you should be literal.

The card does NOT mean, that just one supply truck is gunned down by aircraft. I think of it as a constant guerilla war against this particular german army, so that it is weakened LIKE an army OOS: It can only control it's own hex and will be attacked more easily. Nonetheless it occupies this hex/sector and allows friendly support through the region...

But this is also an pseudo-logical explanation; you could easily find an "explanation" why it should not provide alterante support...

And this is the reason, why I like clear rules, where I can just simply use the rules, and don't have to think about the "WHY is this so?" - because with this kind of explanation you could also explain the martian death-rays the soviet shock troops used in the war...

(And, by the way, I like the rules of NO RETREAT! as logical and clear rules!!! )
 
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Willem Boersma
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Both explanations make sense to me, so I'm hoping Carl will jump in here to give us an official answer.
 
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Thomas Büttner-Zimmermann
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boersma8 wrote:
Both explanations make sense to me, so I'm hoping Carl will jump in here to give us an official answer.


See, that's what I mean: Explanations are more or less meaningless. The only thing that matters are the written rules. And in the rules it is not important, if an unit is OOS or not to provide alternate supply; it just has to trace an overland supply route.
Normally, a unit that can trace an overland supply route is not OOS; in this case (due to a card) the unit is OOS - but that has (according to the rules) no relevance to the question if the unit can provide alternate supply or not!
 
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karljakob
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Almecho wrote:

Normally, a unit that can trace an overland supply route is not OOS; in this case (due to a card) the unit is OOS - but that has (according to the rules) no relevance to the question if the unit can provide alternate supply or not!

Wow, this sounds needlessly complicated to me. I see your point, but since this game is somehow abstract I would always answer those questions straight forward: A Unit is out of supply, so it cannot supply another unit unil it is in supply again. I like the idea of supply chains which can be broken somewhere - even in this very special case of card play. But let's see what Carl says
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Thomas Büttner-Zimmermann
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karljj wrote:
Almecho wrote:

Normally, a unit that can trace an overland supply route is not OOS; in this case (due to a card) the unit is OOS - but that has (according to the rules) no relevance to the question if the unit can provide alternate supply or not!

Wow, this sounds needlessly complicated to me. I see your point, but since this game is somehow abstract I would always answer those questions straight forward: A Unit is out of supply, so it cannot supply another unit unil it is in supply again. I like the idea of supply chains which can be broken somewhere - even in this very special case of card play. But let's see what Carl says

Based on what rule?
I can understand the "logic" you apply - but that's not what is written in the rules.

For me, the rules are written quite clearly on this:
- Can Unit B trace overland supply?
Answer: Yes!
So, it provides alternate supply for unit A.

I don't see, why this is so complicated.
 
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Willem Boersma
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Almecho wrote:
karljj wrote:
Almecho wrote:

Normally, a unit that can trace an overland supply route is not OOS; in this case (due to a card) the unit is OOS - but that has (according to the rules) no relevance to the question if the unit can provide alternate supply or not! :)

Wow, this sounds needlessly complicated to me. I see your point, but since this game is somehow abstract I would always answer those questions straight forward: A Unit is out of supply, so it cannot supply another unit unil it is in supply again. I like the idea of supply chains which can be broken somewhere - even in this very special case of card play. But let's see what Carl says :)

Based on what rule?
I can understand the "logic" you apply - but that's not what is written in the rules.

For me, the rules are written quite clearly on this:
- Can Unit B trace overland supply?
Answer: Yes!
So, it provides alternate supply for unit A.

I don't see, why this is so complicated. :)


Yes, but at the same time it is very logical that when a unit itself is unsupplied, it cannot serve as a supply source for another unit. While I agree this is not what it says in the rule, this may have been an oversight and not intentional. The only way to find out for sure is for Carl to chime in.
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Thomas Büttner-Zimmermann
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boersma8 wrote:
Yes, but at the same time it is very logical that when a unit itself is unsupplied, it cannot serve as a supply source for another unit. While I agree this is not what it says in the rule, this may have been an oversight and not intentional. The only way to find out for sure is for Carl to chime in.

Yes, I'm curious how Carl decides.

I just want to remark, that "logic" is very difficult with abstract games, since often already defined mechanics, such as "OOS" in this case, are used to represent a special state/condition. This is, why I personally play games straight according to the rules, and try not to apply "logic" - since as I illustrated already, you can explain almost everything with "logic" in an abstract game...
 
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Carl Paradis
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Almecho wrote:

For me, the rules are written quite clearly on this:
- Can Unit B trace overland supply?
Answer: Yes!
So, it provides alternate supply for unit A.

I don't see, why this is so complicated.


This is correct.

Hexes are 100Km and turns are two months, so don't fret too much about what "seem" to be happening at the exact moment you play a card. Look at the big picture.
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Carl Paradis
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kuhrusty wrote:


With all the scribbling on the cards, this game is starting to look like Wiz-War:


Oh come on!
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Thomas Büttner-Zimmermann
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licinius wrote:
kuhrusty wrote:


With all the scribbling on the cards, this game is starting to look like Wiz-War:


Oh come on!

I think it was a joke.
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Steven
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Thanks for your answer Carl!

It's probably worth mentioning that the Soviet player is probably using this card to try to cut off the unit in alternate supply, because units with an OOS markers have two shifts to the left on defense.

 
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David Laufle
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licinius wrote:
Almecho wrote:

For me, the rules are written quite clearly on this:
- Can Unit B trace overland supply?
Answer: Yes!
So, it provides alternate supply for unit A.

I don't see, why this is so complicated.


This is correct.

Hexes are 100Km and turns are two months, so don't fret too much about what "seem" to be happening at the exact moment you play a card. Look at the big picture.


Thanks Carl
 
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