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Subject: 18XX? rss

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Mark Gerrits
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Leuven
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BGG lists this as part of the 18XX family, is this really true?
 
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Nate Straight

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Seems unlikely given this shot in a Geeklist:

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Joe Huber

Westborough
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It all depends upon how you want to look at it. If you consider Railroad Barons an 18xx game, you might also consider Starship Merchants an 18xx game.
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Brian Bankler
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huber wrote:
It all depends upon how you want to look at it. If you consider Railroad Barons an 18xx game, you might also consider Starship Merchants at 18xx game.


Come on Joe, you can't leave it dangling at this. Give us a brief summary of the rules and gameplay.

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Gunther Schmidl
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Look here.
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Joe Huber

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Bankler wrote:
Come on Joe, you can't leave it dangling at this. Give us a brief summary of the rules and gameplay.


I'll be working with Tom on that (and more) shortly...
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Laszlo Stadler
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What about playing time?
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Joe Huber

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stadi wrote:
What about playing time?


Our 4 player game last night ran ~75 minutes.
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Jeff Wiles
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I went from not even knowing the game existed to gnashing my teeth in excitement about it in 45 seconds. A new record.
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Brian Bankler
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huber wrote:
stadi wrote:
What about playing time?


Our 4 player game last night ran ~75 minutes.


Which means 90-120 minutes when Joe is not playing.
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Viktor Karlsson Mantel
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First I was like: Yeah pick up and deliver in space!

Then when there was no board to move around on i was like: meeh?!
 
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J C Lawrence
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I do not consider the prototype I played some years ago with Tom & Joe to be an 18xx or even particularly close to an 18xx.
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Eric Brosius
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My favorite 18xx game for six players is two games of 1846 with three players each.
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I've played the game, and I consider it a member of the 18xx family based on the fact that it has a train rush (to me, the quintessential feature of an 18xx game.) I also enjoy it a lot and will unquestionably obtain a copy. You'll note that I have already recorded 5 plays on BGG.

Some people don't even think 2038 is an 18xx, so whether it is one or not depends on how broad your definition is.
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J C Lawrence
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Do you consider Rolling Stock to be an 18xx? (I don't, but find it to be closer to 18xx than this game -- and Rolling Stock most definitely has a train rush)
 
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Eric Brosius
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My favorite 18xx game for six players is two games of 1846 with three players each.
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clearclaw wrote:
Do you consider Rolling Stock to be an 18xx? (I don't, but find it to be closer to 18xx than this game -- and Rolling Stock most definitely has a train rush)


Yes, I consider Rolling Stock to be an 18xx. It has not only a train rush, but stock. I think 18xx is like a star cluster with some stars near the center and others out toward the periphery, but I think both are in the cluster. I'd say it's closer to the center than Rolling Stock.
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J C Lawrence
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Ahh. I look at the heart of the 18xx as a fractional-investment game wrapped around creative destruction combined with market manipulation, and while Rolling Stock has both, they are less central than the financial engineering, and thus it is close-to-but-not-quite-an-18xx. As for the subject game, in the version I played creative destruction was not a central driver outside of the standard snowball growth patterns (a faintly bin-packing problem as I recall it, but across ship-types/qualities and revenue rates etc).

FWLIW I'm told that one of Francis Tresham's litmus tests for is-it-an-18xx is whether a placed tile affects adjacent tiles (and AIR he did not consider that 2038 infringed).

(BTW Dancing around whatever unstated privacy expectations there were in the playtest back when is a PITA)
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Tom Lehmann
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As others have noted, it depends on your definition ...

Personally, I don't consider Starship Merchants an 18XX game (though I do consider 2038 an 18XX game), but would agree that SM is in the "extended family of 18XX-related games" (in which I put games such as Ur 1830 BC).

For me as a designer, the distinguishing features of an "18XX" game are:

* They are "games within games" where you have an operations game surrounded by a capitalization and investing game.

* "Succeeding" in the operations game does not necessarily lead to success in the investing game or to victory in the overall game.

* The operations game is still interesting in its own right -- it is not merely a "set of inputs" to the investing game.

* The operations game changes dynamically over time and moves at a pace dictated by player actions.

2038 meets all four of these conditions. Starship Merchants does not meet the first two conditions -- it has no capitalization or investing parts.

Starship Merchants is an engaging operations game, with a "spaceship rush" that both gives it a dynamic feel and which leads to some very interesting player decisions.

My two cents; your mileage may vary.
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Burster of Bubbles, Destroyer of Dreams.
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Yes, I know a proper 18XX tile should have a tile number.
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The first thing I did when I saw this game entry was suggest a correction, as nothing in the description invokes the buying and selling of shares which is the core of 18xx. :-)
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Dan Blum
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Starship Merchants is 2038's second cousin on its mother's side.
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Burster of Bubbles, Destroyer of Dreams.
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Yes, I know a proper 18XX tile should have a tile number.
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tool wrote:
Starship Merchants is 2038's second cousin on it's mother's side.


To me, it evoked Merchant of Venus more.

(Note that all I know about this game is the BGG database entry.)

Oh, and I want to try it ;-)
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Dan Blum
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Morganza wrote:
tool wrote:
Starship Merchants is 2038's second cousin on it's mother's side.


To me, it evoked Merchant of Venus more.

(Note that all I know about this game is the BGG database entry.)

Oh, and I want to try it ;-)


However much or little the game is like 2038, it's less like Merchant of Venus.
 
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J C Lawrence
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I have requested that this game be removed from the 18xx family.
 
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Burster of Bubbles, Destroyer of Dreams.
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The 18xx family designation has been cleared, but this is still a game I'm interested in trying :-)
 
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Burster of Bubbles, Destroyer of Dreams.
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tool wrote:
Morganza wrote:
tool wrote:
Starship Merchants is 2038's second cousin on it's mother's side.


To me, it evoked Merchant of Venus more.


However much or little the game is like 2038, it's less like Merchant of Venus.


I saw the rush to get money and the tradeoffs in whether to invest in improved infrastructure, and MoV was the first thing that came to mind. YMMV.
 
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Dan Blum
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Morganza wrote:
tool wrote:
Morganza wrote:
tool wrote:
Starship Merchants is 2038's second cousin on it's mother's side.


To me, it evoked Merchant of Venus more.


However much or little the game is like 2038, it's less like Merchant of Venus.


I saw the rush to get money and the tradeoffs in whether to invest in improved infrastructure, and MoV was the first thing that came to mind. YMMV.


You can find points of similarity, but I've played both games a fair number of times and they really don't feel at all the same to me. For one thing, the equipment aspect of MoV, while important, is much less of the game than it is in Starship Merchants. For another, MoV doesn't have 18xx-style automatic obsolescence of ships, forcing the purchase of new ones.
 
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