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Subject: New Dominion all-encompassing FAQ rss

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Nick Knutsen
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I've been compiling a FAQ with all Dominion rules.

Originally I thought to replace the current BGG FAQ, since I found it a little lacking and also since I thought a FAQ should include all rulings made by DXV that aren't in any printed rules.

However, I found out that my FAQ actually needed to include all the rules. Stating rulings about certain card interactions and timing events just didn't work if the actual rules weren't there also. The FAQ now has every rule from every rule book, but reworded and condensed, written as clearly as I can, and then expanded again with all extra-rulebook ruling and clarifications.

So now it's probably too dense, and probably also too long, to be the Dominion FAQ here on BGG. While every rules question can be answered from it, it doesn't serve the purpose of bullet pointing actual frequently asked questions that people often get wrong. There is some of that, but as I said, it's written pretty densely and precisely so that everything is (a) clear and (b) concise.

I'm thinking now to make a PDF out of it and upload it. It has lots of links to posts on BGG and dominionstrategy; I think those would work in a PDF document. I'm thinking also to update the BGG FAQ with a few things that I think it's missing, and then link from the FAQ to my document. My question is whether doing that is kosher? The reason I think it should be done is that what I'm making is essentially another FAQ, only one with everything, for any Dominion player to look up anything but not first and foremost for beginners, like the current FAQ. So the two FAQs should compliment each other. If there were a way of making another FAQ on BGG, that would be ideal, but I don't think there is.
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Dennison Milenkaya
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PunchBall wrote:
There is some of that, but as I said, it's written pretty densely and precisely so that everything is (a) clear and (b) concise.


So is it dense or concise?
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Derek Whaley
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Wondering the same thing. Also, have you seen my Dominion Complete Annotated Rules? I've worked with Donald X some to ensure that all the official FAQs are included, and he has consistently stated that there are very few official FAQs and that most have been addressed in the official card descriptions.
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Nick Knutsen
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FlatOnHisFace wrote:
So is it dense or concise?

Can't it be both?
It has a lot of rules expressed in a small space, so the rules are concise, and the document is dense. ("Small space" is relative of course.)
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Nick Knutsen
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Whaleyland wrote:
Wondering the same thing. Also, have you seen my Dominion Complete Annotated Rules? I've worked with Donald X some to ensure that all the official FAQs are included, and he has consistently stated that there are very few official FAQs and that most have been addressed in the official card descriptions.

I'm not sure what you mean by "official FAQs" when you say that there are very few official FAQs. Can you explain?

I've looked through the Complete Annotated Rules now. There are some mistakes, and some omissions.

Just some examples:

- "Draw phase" is not a fourth phase, but a part of the Clean-up phase. Matters for the card text on Outpost, but probably also a lot of places in the rulebooks.

- Your Embassy example under Resolving cards is one of the few things that are actually wrong in the rulebooks. It's only correct when the current player gains Embassy. Ill-Gotten Gains also has this mistake in the rulebook.

- One thing that isn't mentioned in any rulebook, is that the "pick an option, then do as much as you can" rule applies to resolving any ability, not just playing an Action card. E.g., an Attack is played, you set Horse Traders aside, but when it's your turn you had a Tactician in play and draw your deck. Horse Traders fails to do +1 Card, but still returns to your hand. The rule also applied to playing Treasure cards.

- Drawing cards is done one card at a time. This matters for Stash. I don't think it's mentioned anywhere except in a post by Donald.

- The "lose track" rule.

- Who's the current player between turns, and when the last player was possessed.

- Etc.

I've been looking through every post by DXV here and on the Dominion Strategy Forum. (I'm not done btw.) So I have a lot of (sometimes admittedly marginal) clarifications, but I want to be as complete as possible. I'm not trying to say that your document is no good, but I want to explain why my document has merit. Yours contains all the text from the official rules, in addition to the secret histories, mine certainly does not. If you fix the few outright mistakes, your is great. It doesn't need to have all the corner case stuff mine has. The two documents do different things.

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Nick Knutsen
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Yes, thanks.
 
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Nick Knutsen
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Looking at how the FAQ is made and how the Wiki here works, I think I can just create a second FAQ ("Complete Rules FAQ" or something) and link to it from the main article in addition to the existing FAQ.
 
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Derek Whaley
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Sorry if I sounded rude in my first post, I did not intend it. Blame my wife. She was hassling me at the time. In any case, I'll answer your questions and statements in turn below:

PunchBall wrote:

I'm not sure what you mean by "official FAQs" when you say that there are very few official FAQs. Can you explain?

I contacted Donald X. and Jay when I first began my Dominion Rules asking for any official rulings. Jay had none and Donald had two, I believe. I've found a few more since then that both had forgotten but looked through the entire FAQ and found little of use that was not already addressed in the descriptions and/or secret histories. When I first decided to compile the rules, my intention was to include all the FAQs in it, but since there weren't any "official" ones (ones that Donald and Jay had publicly made) I went in other directions. I still would like to include as many relevant FAQs as necessary and I would be happy to have your help in including those in my document.

Quote:
I've looked through the Complete Annotated Rules now. There are some mistakes, and some omissions.

Just some examples:

- "Draw phase" is not a fourth phase, but a part of the Clean-up phase. Matters for the card text on Outpost, but probably also a lot of places in the rulebooks.

This one I am very well aware of as it as a conscious decision I made. With the exception of a few duration cards (Outpost being one of them), few cards mention the Clean-up phase. I decided to separate the two out in my rules in order to better explain a turn's progress. Perhaps it was overbold of me, but after using the Dominion player placards from Spielbox (my friends love them for some reason) it became clear that Draw is separate from Clean-up, even if they are technically the same phase. I will keep it separate in my rules but make it more clear that it is technically part of the Clean-up Phase, perhaps by putting the phase in parenthesis or something.

Quote:
- Your Embassy example under Resolving cards is one of the few things that are actually wrong in the rulebooks. It's only correct when the current player gains Embassy. Ill-Gotten Gains also has this mistake in the rulebook.

As you stated, this example is wrong in the rulebooks. Issues like this are the reason I constantly ask for corrections. I was not aware there was a problem with it. I will look over these two cards and see what I can do to clarify them.

Quote:
- One thing that isn't mentioned in any rulebook, is that the "pick an option, then do as much as you can" rule applies to resolving any ability, not just playing an Action card. E.g., an Attack is played, you set Horse Traders aside, but when it's your turn you had a Tactician in play and draw your deck. Horse Traders fails to do +1 Card, but still returns to your hand. The rule also applied to playing Treasure cards.

This seems like a fairly easy rule to adjust. I will take the original rule out of the action section and find a better home for it with an example using a Treasure card as well.

Quote:
- Drawing cards is done one card at a time. This matters for Stash. I don't think it's mentioned anywhere except in a post by Donald.

Good catch. I knew that, of course, but you are correct in saying that it isn't mentioned in the rules. That should be added to a couple of sections, I believe.

Quote:
- The "lose track" rule.

I'm not aware of this rule. Would you mind explaining it in further detail so I can include it somewhere?

Quote:
- Who's the current player between turns, and when the last player was possessed.

I believe this was addressed in the Possession description, but perhaps I am wrong. In any case, any further clarity on this issue would be great as things like this are why the Dominion CAR is around.

Quote:
- Etc.

Any other "etc"s you have would be great, especially if it improves the quality and usability of my document.

Quote:
I've been looking through every post by DXV here and on the Dominion Strategy Forum. (I'm not done btw.) So I have a lot of (sometimes admittedly marginal) clarifications, but I want to be as complete as possible. I'm not trying to say that your document is no good, but I want to explain why my document has merit. Yours contains all the text from the official rules, in addition to the secret histories, mine certainly does not. If you fix the few outright mistakes, yours is great. It doesn't need to have all the corner case stuff mine has. The two documents do different things.

I absolutely agree. As I said earlier, most of the FAQ stuff in the wiki was located somewhere in my document already or was such a minor issue that I didn't want to bother with it. But major issues, like many of those you mentioned above, are important to something people take with them and use on a regular basis. Our two documents are very different. Mine is a rules replacement for the twenty or so booklets that players use, while yours is a reference guide for specific issues. But certain issues overlap, and I would be happy to have any input you can provide that would make my document more useful for players.
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Derek Whaley
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Punchball, what's your status? I never got a reply. meeple
 
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Nick Knutsen
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Whaleyland wrote:
Punchball, what's your status? I never got a reply. meeple


Sorry about that. Thought I would have my FAQ finished and up by now. I'm almost done with it. When it's up I'll post a message about it here. You can read through it and take whatever you want to incorporate in your document. And if you have any comments about things that are wrong or unclear, or any questions, please let me know.
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Derek Whaley
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Gotcha. Thanks!
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Nick Knutsen
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The Complete and All-Encompassing Dominion FAQ is finally up! (Yes, the title of the FAQ is a little overblown, but I was trying to describe it accurately.)

Please read it and give me feedback on anything that you think should be changed. I also hope Donald will read it and give corrections and/or suggestions.
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Dennison Milenkaya
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Since your goal was to cover every minutae of detail, wouldn't IAQ be a more appropriate label?
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Nick Knutsen
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FlatOnHisFace wrote:
Since your goal was to cover every minutae of detail, wouldn't IAQ be a more appropriate label?

Maybe so, but who would understand it? It's not commonly used at all. I think it would confuse more than it would help.
 
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James Newton
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PunchBall wrote:
The Complete and All-Encompassing Dominion FAQ is finally up! (Yes, the title of the FAQ is a little overblown, but I was trying to describe it accurately.)

Please read it and give me feedback on anything that you think should be changed. I also hope Donald will read it and give corrections and/or suggestions.

First comment is that I am impressed - good effort!

Now a few suggestions/nit-picks of things that struck me within the extents of my understanding. And I mean suggestions - with a couple of exceptions I am open to be being told I am wrong on any of these. And items in bold are simply highlighting the changes that I am suggesting here (I am not suggesting that the text should be bolded in the FAQ).

In section 1 might there also be a reference to "copy" of a crd meaning any card with the same name. I am remembering a question about Ambassador whether the revealed card could be returned or whether it had to be a copy.

In section 2, for absolute completeness, there could be a reference to any other setup actions required by cards in use (I think Black Market, Trade Route and Yound Witch are the only examples so far).

In section 3 under the Buy phase it should read "no coins were produced" (not where).

In the second para of section 7, set-aside cards are also put in your Deck before counting points. In fact (for utter completeness, although I don't believe it matters ... yet) I normally also put any other cards in play into my deck (i.e Duration cards).

In section 15, I was wondering whether the bit about cards from the deck being set aside until you've revealed/looked at all of them should actually be until you have finished revealing/looking at (all of) them. I feel that this better describes the Golem case - but then again my understanding of English words isn't always the same as other people's.

In section 16, on the bit abouts cards costing 2 coins less you say that this applies to "all cards in the game". Of course where the cost reduction only applies to cards of a particular type (e.g. Quarry), it applies to all cards in the game of that type. I know that is what you meant, and can't think of a wording that is not potentially cumbersome/confusing, but thought I would mention it anyway.

In section 21 on King's Court you say that everything that applies to Throne Room also applies - clearly this does not include the following paragraph about keeping the game "honest". I'm not saying it needs to be changed, just pointing out a pedantic nit-pick.

In section 21 on Mining Village, I think that the last but one sentence should read "But Mining Village has now lost track of itself." and not Throne Room.
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Nick Knutsen
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churchmouse wrote:
Now a few suggestions/nit-picks of things that struck me within the extents of my understanding.

Thanks for this feedback! It was very helpful.

churchmouse wrote:
In section 1 might there also be a reference to "copy" of a crd meaning any card with the same name. I am remembering a question about Ambassador whether the revealed card could be returned or whether it had to be a copy.

Good idea, added.

churchmouse wrote:
In section 2, for absolute completeness, there could be a reference to any other setup actions required by cards in use (I think Black Market, Trade Route and Yound Witch are the only examples so far).

Also Tournament. They were all there before (TR and YW on the card text itself, BM and T under the entry in section 21), but I added a sentence about it under section 2.

churchmouse wrote:
In section 3 under the Buy phase it should read "no coins were produced" (not where).

Thanks, corrected.

churchmouse wrote:
In the second para of section 7, set-aside cards are also put in your Deck before counting points. In fact (for utter completeness, although I don't believe it matters ... yet) I normally also put any other cards in play into my deck (i.e Duration cards).

The card texts on cards that set aside cards should tell you to add them to your deck at the end of the game. Haven doesn't and is listed under section 21.

churchmouse wrote:
In section 15, I was wondering whether the bit about cards from the deck being set aside until you've revealed/looked at all of them should actually be until you have finished revealing/looking at (all of) them. I feel that this better describes the Golem case - but then again my understanding of English words isn't always the same as other people's.

After thinking about it, I agree. It wasn't strictly correct. Changed, thanks.

churchmouse wrote:
In section 16, on the bit abouts cards costing 2 coins less you say that this applies to "all cards in the game". Of course where the cost reduction only applies to cards of a particular type (e.g. Quarry), it applies to all cards in the game of that type. I know that is what you meant, and can't think of a wording that is not potentially cumbersome/confusing, but thought I would mention it anyway.

I think I'll just decide that this is implicit. It would be ridiculous to believe that this entry would override the limitation of Quarry for instance.

churchmouse wrote:
In section 21 on King's Court you say that everything that applies to Throne Room also applies - clearly this does not include the following paragraph about keeping the game "honest". I'm not saying it needs to be changed, just pointing out a pedantic nit-pick.

I added a note about it.

churchmouse wrote:
In section 21 on Mining Village, I think that the last but one sentence should read "But Mining Village has now lost track of itself." and not Throne Room.

Ooh, ugly one. Corrected, thanks!
 
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Nick Knutsen
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Expanded section 1 (Reading a card) quite a bit, after suggestions from Donald. Explaining the types and frame colors aren't strictly needed for playing the game according to the rules, but it's nice to have somewhere where it's all listed, since it's missing from the rule book.
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Derek Whaley
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Quote:
Note: There are no errata pertaining to actual card texts.


There actually is one official card text erratum that Donald X. acknowledged in the Secret History of Prosperity. It regards Throne Room. The original card text reads "Choose an Action card in your hand. Play it twice." After the introduction of King's Court, Throne Room should read "You may choose an Action card in your hand. Play it twice." Thus far, I believe that is the only official card text errata.
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Whaleyland wrote:
Quote:
Note: There are no errata pertaining to actual card texts.


There actually is one official card text erratum that Donald X. acknowledged in the Secret History of Prosperity. It regards Throne Room. The original card text reads "Choose an Action card in your hand. Play it twice." After the introduction of King's Court, Throne Room should read "You may choose an Action card in your hand. Play it twice." Thus far, I believe that is the only official card text errata.


I don't think that's a card text errata. Donald has said that if he could go back in time, he would rather have made Throne Room differently. But he didn't actually go and officially change it with errata.
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Nick Knutsen
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kevincos wrote:
I don't think that's a card text errata. Donald has said that if he could go back in time, he would rather have made Throne Room differently. But he didn't actually go and officially change it with errata.


Right, he has specifically said he's not errataing it. The same problem is true for Moneylender and Mine by the way. See the section on "Mine, Moneylender, Throne Room" in section 21 of the Complete FAQ. You'll also find links to a couple of posts by Donald on this.
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Derek Whaley
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Fair enough. In my Annotated Rules, which I am adding pretty much your whole FAQ to in some form or another (footnotes for the rules section finally, YAY!), I added the Throne Room note above to the card as errata. But I haven't found anything else I can add without actually changing the gameplay mechanics of the card itself, which I don't want to do unless Donald releases official notices on errata.
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Nick Knutsen
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Yep, cool, just add anything.

Here's the relevant post btw: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/3284316#3284316
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Derek Whaley
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Well I guess that quenches it and I'll have to remove the errata. In any case, I've added most of your card edits, clarifications, etc. to the rules. Many of them I just added or corrected in the descriptions themselves and a few I added verbatim to the text. I will, of course, add you to my credits in the "important contributors" category. I'll go through the rest of the stuff later. Most of it will be footnotes in the rules section, which will be a nice change since I've been wanting to expand those for a while. I may also finally add a "card analysis" section since I have not yet gone into any details of the card formatting, despite having a few example cards in my newest draft. It may be helpful at times. In any case, thanks for all the work. I will try to get the rules updated by the end of next week. I want to get all this stuff included post-haste before version 2.5 comes out with the Base Cards expansion sometime in March or April.
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Derek Whaley
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PunchBall: I want to include the losing track rule as a footnote to the normal rules but I can't decide which rule it should be a footnote to. Any suggestions? Is there a specific type of action that often prompts the "losing track" event?
 
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Whaleyland wrote:
PunchBall: I want to include the losing track rule as a footnote to the normal rules but I can't decide which rule it should be a footnote to. Any suggestions? Is there a specific type of action that often prompts the "losing track" event?


Mining Village combined with a multi-use card (i.e. Throne Room, Kings Court) is the most cited example.
 
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