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Subject: Cult of the new is getting a bit out of hand rss

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Ralph T
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Eclipse has been out for a couple months now, right? Judging from Drakkenstrike's review in late October, he received an early review copy. In two months, it's number 9 or 10 out of all games on BGG? With just 1,700 ratings? So in two months of play, people know it's a better game than Tigris & Euphrates or El Grande which have been out for over a decade. It used to be "the Bayesian" prevented meteoric rises as steep as this. Why is the cult of the new so strong?
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Steve Duff
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ralpher wrote:
Eclipse has been out for a couple months now, right? Judging from Drakkenstrike's review in late October, he received an early review copy. In two months, it's number 9 or 10 out of all games on BGG? With just 1,700 ratings? So in two months of play, people know it's a better game than Tigris & Euphrates or El Grande which have been out for over a decade.


Absolutely. My one big complaint about the rating system, it just doesn't factor lack of votes into account enough.

A game shouldn't get near the top ten until at least 5000-6000 ratings.
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Ralph T
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Another factor that favors the cult of the new is that if ratings are over 1 year old, they either count less or not at all. You'll notice your ratings over a year old have an asterisk. This is probably why Puerto Rico rates lower than Agricola despite having more votes and a higher average.
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Derry Salewski
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Um, I'm pretty sure the asterik just means that it's a guess at when you placed it, since they weren't tracking the date of votes back then.

Eclipse is a bit silly.

But it's a big, expensive, limited release game. And apparently it's quite good.

Same sort of storm that TS got, except even more perfect-- people that play it will probably love it.
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Ralph T
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Nope, all of your personal ratings over a year old get the asterisk. How this changes how your rating is averaged in the overall rating hasn't been explained, but it's apparent that the "decay" in ratings older games get must be due to some weight given to the age of a rating.
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Derry Salewski
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Mine don't.
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Ralph T
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Hmmm. Maybe ratings over two years get the asterisk?
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Buying a game only based on the rank it has is not the best thing to do ... but I do know there are people that will purchase a game only by looking at the rank.

I agree, that a new game that is shiny may make it to the top a bit to easily, however in the case of super-duper limited edition games.. Yes, I am looking at you War of the Ring Collector's Edition.... They get to the top because the people that were willing to pay the price probably had the game ranked high to begin with..

I personally would like to see the list (at least for the top 100 or so) only allow 1 entry per game as a whole (I do not need to see every version of Dominion), but I do not make the rules.

At least My Little Pony Hide & Seek made the top spot for a while.

You can not just say "new games can not make the top 10". Maybe if there was a % weight applied to a new game after the first month or two a game is out to ballance the new factor. I do not mind if a game spikes into the top 25 or so if it is brand new because that rating will help sell copies of the new game. I would like to see a new game with fewer ratings moved lower down in ranking after an introductory couple of months if there was a fair way to do this.
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Maarten D. de Jong
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ralpher wrote:
Nope, all of your personal ratings over a year old get the asterisk.

Explain then why
— none of my ratings given after January 2010 carry the asterisk; and
— why on every field with an asterisk a popup with the word 'estimated' appears.

By the way, if your hypothesis is correct, then in a few days' time, the rates of January 2010 should get an asterisk—after all, it will be February shortly.

Quote:
How this changes how your rating is averaged in the overall rating hasn't been explained, but it's apparent that the "decay" in ratings older games get must be due to some weight given to the age of a rating.

There is no weight decay in the averaging. If there was, then oldies would have a really tough time staying as high in the ranks as they do. The meteoric rise of Eclipse is due to initial fans; it will take time for less interested gamers to weigh in with a more conservative opinion. There is no reason to assume that this pattern would not hold for oldies. So if your weight decay hypothesis is correct, the loss of intial enthusiastic rates should coincide with the rise of more realistic votes, pushing games down a lot quicker than is currently the case.

What you are seeing is plain fanboyism. Once you know that, you can ignore Eclipse's rank and continue with life.
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UnknownParkerBrother wrote:

A game shouldn't get near the top ten until at least 5000-6000 ratings.


So it has to sell multiple print runs to be considered any good in the first place?
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There have been several suggestions threads with people requesting rating decay. Doesn't make much sense to me, though.

Weight game rankings on age
Suggestion: ignore "old" ratings
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Lance
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Since it hasn't been done yet I just wanted to quickly pop in here and remind everyone that the BGG ranking scale means absolutely nothing and everyone should just play the games they enjoy regardless to what this online community thinks as a whole is a good or bad game.

I now return you to your thread.
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Alex Brown
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I can't stand the Cult of the New. Even though I like to evaluate new games, I really want to explore a game with an opponent or few over many, many games.

However, the Cult of the New is what drives this site, drives interest and drives the industry. Posters really have to start to move beyond their own biases and look at what benefits discussion and diffuse game production as a whole.

I will never be a part of the Cult of the New, but I've reaped many benefits in terms of better games.

The ratings are always going to lean a particular way; just because they don't lean my way (1hr or less gaming) doesn't mean they aren't appropriate.
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Trent Hamm
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cymric wrote:
ralpher wrote:
Nope, all of your personal ratings over a year old get the asterisk.

Explain then why
— none of my ratings given after January 2010 carry the asterisk;


Because they started tracking the date of BGG ratings in January 2010. Before that, they can only make an educated guess as to when you rated the game, which is why it's marked with an asterisk, to indicate the date listed is a guess.
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ralpher wrote:
It used to be "the Bayesian" prevented meteoric rises as steep as this.


It still does, perhaps even too effectively.

The last two games [prior to Eclipse] to break into the BGG Top-25 were Dominant Species and 7 Wonders, both of which won major awards and are clearly top-notch games [for the intended audiences / purposes].

The year before that saw Steam and Dominion: Intrigue, which were simply re-purposed editions of games that were already in the Top-25. Before that, Le Havre, Dominion, Battlestar, and Stone Age entered in a single year.

You can definitely make the case that any of those 2008 titles don't belong, but by and large the titles that are in the Top-25 are easily the most well-loved of recent releases, with flash-in-the-pans excluded.

Old titles like Paths of Glory remain in the Top-25 with vote counts only barely over that of Eclipse. The fact of the matter is that Eclipse really outshines most recent games.

The Top-25 or so seem realistic to me; it's the middling ranks of 50-250 or so that I think deserve to be filled with considerably more older titles. 1700 ratings with an average of 8.5 is stellar and deserves to hit the top ranks, but something like London or Automobile with only a year under their belt, ratings of around 7.5, and raters numbering 2700 doesn't deserve to be listed next to something like a 10- or 20-year old game like Up Front or Antiquity with ratings nearly half a point higher with around half as many votes.
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Doug Bias
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Eclipse is, indeed, a great game, and I think it does deserve its place in the top ten. The most recent game it beat out was Dominion, and I dare say it is many times better than Dominion-though I still love Dominion. As of this morning, it is very close to beating out Dominion Intrigue. While Eclipse may only have around 1,700 votes right now, take a look at those votes: 83% of them are an 8 or higher! How many other games have a similar percentage of votes in that range. And it has more 10s than it does 8s! Granted, Eclipse has a few benefits in its favor: it's new and players haven't had time for the excitement of this game to wear off-which I don't see happening-and it has a high price tag, which usually encourages people to force themselves to like a game since they've invested so much into it. Once the 2nd print run comes out, it may correct itself. However, Eclipse will remain a top 20 game for sure, so its current ranking is not far off.
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Geosphere wrote:
UnknownParkerBrother wrote:

A game shouldn't get near the top ten until at least 5000-6000 ratings

So it has to sell multiple print runs to be considered any good in the first place?

I don't particularly agree with the initial premise, but your counter-argument is flawed, since 5000 people playing a game does not mean 5000 people need to buy it. Does seem like a large number of people to ask to rate it though.
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Wesley Kinslow
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I think that a good game is a good game (people likely wouldn't rate it well if they didn't obviously enjoy it) and that a game shouldn't have to "pay it's dues" in order to be recognized as a great game.

I don't think Eclipse is being propped up by people who don't legitimately enjoy playing it and I'm curious as to why you're so against the idea that a game that just came out can be so well liked.

...unless you're just frustrated that other people don't share your tastes - and that would be understandable I suppose.
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Kaffedrake wrote:
There have been several suggestions threads with people requesting rating decay. Doesn't make much sense to me, though.

Weight game rankings on age
Suggestion: ignore "old" ratings
Makes every sense to me. But then it would since I started one of those threads.

I simply do not believe that a rating that you gave, say, 5 years ago, is necessarily how you would rate the game today. Indeed, for example, no matter how good you thought it was back then , the game is now competing with a pile of new ones. So I firmly believe that what is needed is a weighting decay (based on age since the rating was made), supported by an easy way to 'renew' ratings in some sort of bulk.
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ralpher wrote:
Eclipse,Puerto Rico,Agricola,Through the Ages,Dominion has been out for a couple months now, right? ... Why is the cult of the new so strong?


What is this, 2003,2004,2008,2009,2010?
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Steve Duff
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Geosphere wrote:
So it has to sell multiple print runs to be considered any good in the first place?


Absolutely. If it can't sell out multiple runs, it's not a top game is it?

It's the list of top games of BGG users collectively, not "Bob and 3 other guys from Topeka" top ten list.
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I haven't heard a bad thing about Eclipse.

It's not Hype if it can be backed up

Cannot wait to play it!
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UnknownParkerBrother wrote:
Geosphere wrote:
So it has to sell multiple print runs to be considered any good in the first place?


Absolutely. If it can't sell out multiple runs, it's not a top game is it?

It's the list of top games of BGG users collectively, not "Bob and 3 other guys from Topeka" top ten list.


I made the greatest game in the world. It was loved by fans and critics, families and their pets. Production values were over the top. I sold through the first print run on 5000 in no time flat. Only 80% of the owners bothered to rate it. I lost my shirt producing it due to poor business planning. I died. My estate was in shambles and nobody could clear out the rights to produce it.

Guess my game isn't good enough to be a top rated game because events surrounding the production of the game happened.
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UndeadViking wrote:
Since it hasn't been done yet I just wanted to quickly pop in here and remind everyone that the BGG ranking scale means absolutely nothing and everyone should just play the games they enjoy regardless to what this online community thinks as a whole is a good or bad game.

I now return you to your thread.


Thank you!!
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Imagine how boring the hobby would be without new games entering the top 25 rankings?

Thats it! Stop making games! Perfection has been achieved! shake

Change is the sign of a healthy industry that is growing. If some (and we are talking about 5 - 10% a year of the top 100) new titles never made it to a high ranking i'm pretty sure that the community & hobby would die.

But I get the impression some people would like that just fine
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