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Subject: Torpedo Spread House Rule Idea rss

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Robert Fabbro
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Here's a house rule for torpedo spreads I'm considering:

Resolve torpedo spreads as per the rulebook EXCEPT only the highest damage result is used. For instance I fire a spread of three torpedoes and roll 3 – 7 – 8. I then use the 8 as my final result against the target (plus any normal modifiers).

Should there be a tie for the highest number, then both (or more) results are applied to the target. For example say I fire a 4 torpedo spread and roll 2 – 5 – 7 – 7, I would apply both 7s (plus modifiers) to the target.

Hopefully this might be a good compromise between the original rule (that some feel is too potent) and the optional rule (that some feel weakens the spreads too much).

Fair warning: I haven't tested this yet.


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Marc Wuthe
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Like your idea. I will give it a try tonight!

Amazing, how many optional rules, additional rules, house rules and variants are out for this new game already... shake
 
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Dean Brown
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I like it too. Does seem to be more reasonable. Probably won't try it out for a while, so I would be interested in hearing feedback.
 
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Alessandro Trovato
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Sounds good... it would be interesting a probability calculation also for this one.

I don't like unofficial rules and we are already at 3 variants for such an important aspect of the game shake
 
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Dean Brown
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alextrov wrote:

Sounds good... it would be interesting a probability calculation also for this one.

I don't like unofficial rules and we are already at 3 variants for such an important aspect of the game shake


I do have the original and optional already modelled... It should be easy to add this one. I'll try to get to it this week.
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Dean Brown
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Ran the numbers comparing the Original Rules, the Optional Rules from Dave, the Optional Rules with +2 Tracking variant from Dave, and the Proposed Rules here. I ran them across torpedo spreads from 1 to 5.





The Proposed Rules obviously fall between the Original and Optional. I think I need to play a few games to see where my VP totals fall to decide if it's still too strong.

BTW, regarding Dave's proposed variant to add +2 to roll after tracking, move the Optional rule up 20%.

One option (if required) may be to remove the doubles. EDIT: Just ran it without doubles. It is about 3% less for easier ships, and 5% less for the harder ships. Not much of a difference.
 
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Vance Strickland
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Dean, I think there's something wrong with your analysis.

Looking at the Telena and using Dave's optional rule:

With range and skill modifiers at zero, if I fire 4 torpedoes at the Telena and roll one die the very worst I can do is roll a 1, +3 = 4. Four torpedoes with a 4 roll means 4 x Lt Damage = sunk = 100% chance.

Or am I missing something?
 
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Dean Brown
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With Dave's optional rule, you only get one roll per turn, which is basically what the graphs above are showing. So you get one die roll + 3 when firing 4 torpedos. You don't roll 4 times.

With the original rules, it follows your logic, hence the 100% sunk result.
 
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Vance Strickland
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GrumpyOldGamer wrote:
With Dave's optional rule, you only get one roll per turn, which is basically what the graphs above are showing. So you get one die roll + 3 when firing 4 torpedos. You don't roll 4 times.....


Yes but you still fired 4 torps. It just that now ALL the torps use the same roll, each is still counted.





 
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Dean Brown
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That isn't my interpretation of his rule. It says to "Roll one die for each Ship attacked with Torpedoes (not each torpedo) modify the die roll, and look at the Torpedo Hit numbers...". He explicitly states each Ship, not each torpedo. I think it's only one die roll + modifier.
 
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Alessandro Trovato
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Uhm.i have understood it was one roll overall... the number of torpedos only gives the roll modifier "number of torpedos minus one"
 
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Vance Strickland
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Well... it would be interesting to here what Dave has to say.

Your guys way seems insanely hard and totally random.

My way makes it a little harder and makes you think more about how many torps to fire..."Do I shoot 4 for the sure kill or only 2 and save some for the other boats in the convoy..."

 
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Dean Brown
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Dave and I already went through the whole Torpedo Spread Option discussion in another thread. I'm pretty sure he was using my interpretation. That's why many of us think the new option is too weak. There is a gap of 60%+ between the original and optional rule in some cases. That's why we are looking for a reasonable alternative in-between the two.
 
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Vance Strickland
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GrumpyOldGamer wrote:
Dave and I already went through the whole Torpedo Spread Option discussion in another thread. I'm pretty sure he was using my interpretation. That's why many of us think the new option is too weak. There is a gap of 60%+ between the original and optional rule in some cases. That's why we are looking for a reasonable alternative in-between the two.


I just went back a re-read your dicussion with Dave in the the other thread. Seems you are probably right after all from Dave's comments, but I still asked the question over on CSW.

I've a long campaign running now and I seem to be doing OK with my method but no where near as well as with the original rules.
 
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David Schueler
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Barthheart wrote:
GrumpyOldGamer wrote:
Dave and I already went through the whole Torpedo Spread Option discussion in another thread. I'm pretty sure he was using my interpretation. That's why many of us think the new option is too weak. There is a gap of 60%+ between the original and optional rule in some cases. That's why we are looking for a reasonable alternative in-between the two.


I just went back a re-read your dicussion with Dave in the the other thread. Seems you are probably right after all from Dave's comments, but I still asked the question over on CSW.

I've a long campaign running now and I seem to be doing OK with my method but no where near as well as with the original rules.


Dean has interpreted the rule correctly. There would be one roll, with modifiers, for one result.

I would like to make one quick observation on the reasons people are suggesting modifications to the torpedo rules (at least from my point of view) and ask a question. It seems to me the main reason people are talking about optional rules is that most of their evaluations turn out Good or Great, which makes the game seem too easy. So, the idea is to find a way to make the results fall more in the Adequate to Good range.

My question is, when you are thinking about how hard/easy it is to hit with torpedoes are you looking at it from a tactical point of view (i.e. I should be able to sink a ship with X number of torpedoes) or a strategic point of view (i.e. I need to sink X number of ships to reach my campaign goal)?

My point here is questioning whether there is a problem with the torpedo rules (this would be the tactical point of view) or the campaign evaluation ratings (more of a strategic issue).

Dave
 
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Alessandro Trovato
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I was writing a long reply but in the end:

I just dream of a new version of the Rules including everything YOU consider more realistic regardless the increase of complexity or less "playability". An updated VP Evaluation table if needed, no optional rules or variants.



Alex
 
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Dean Brown
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daveshoe wrote:

My question is, when you are thinking about how hard/easy it is to hit with torpedoes are you looking at it from a tactical point of view (i.e. I should be able to sink a ship with X number of torpedoes) or a strategic point of view (i.e. I need to sink X number of ships to reach my campaign goal)?
Dave


Well, since I'm the one computing probabilities of sinking ships, I personally think it's a tactical problem.

Taking the Telena (3-6-9, 1VP, 1XP) as an example, it's a fairly easy ship from the merchant ship card perspective, and it really isn't worth a lot. I would think that shooting 3 torpedoes at is should give me a "reasonable" chance of sinking it, like in the 70-80% range. With the orginal rules, the chances are about 97%, and with the Optional rules, the chances are 40%.

If something like Harry G. Seidel (5-8-11,2VP, 2XP) shows up, I would expect to fire maybe 4 torpedoes for maybe a slightly less reasonable chance (65-75%). With the original rules, the chances (4 torpedos) are 98%. The Optional rules gives a 30% chance.

For the Empress of Britain (7-10-13, 4VP, 3XP), I would expect to fire 5 torpedoes and maybe have about a 50-60% chance. That's a lot of valuable resources, but more VPs. The original rule chances are about 97% and the optional rules chances are 20%.

When it's too easy to just sink ships and tally results, that's not much fun. But when you are throwing a bunch of torpedoes at a moderatly-valued ship, and you get a light damage, that is just frustrating.

The other option is to fire smaller groupings of torpedoes over multiple turns to build up damage. And maybe this was your original intent. Regarding the implementation, I would prefer to have Escort ships move towards damaged or sunk ships and not increase the detection ranges. To me, this seems more realistic, plus could allow me more freedom to maneuver around the tactical display looking for additional attack opportunities. With increased detection ranges, and limited space, that option is just way too dangerous.

Regarding the strategic element, I was adjusting my starting SO's down when it got too easy. I was cutting them by 40%, and still getting Great results. If the tactical end was a little more reasonable, and it got to be too easy, I would personally prefer to fiddle with the starting SO's, not the VP's.

So that's my opinion, for whatever it's worth. I think the game really captures the essence of being a U-Boat commander, but the torpedo spread rule needs to be tweaked to make it fun and challenging.

NOTE: All probabilities above assume a distance of 0.

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Vance Strickland
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Good points Dean.

How about something like this:

Type II U-boats had 3 forwardtubes and no rear, Type VII had 4 forward tubes and 1 rear, while type IX had 4 forward and 2 rear.

So, in a single atack you can only fire your forward or rear tubes. This limits the maximum torps fired at once thus forcing multiple rounds of firing to sink larger ships.

Also have the spread modifier start at N-2, using the original rules,
eg 3 toprs get a +2 on each die.
 
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Alessandro Trovato
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Undetected, from Convoy Course, 6 Torpedos to a tracked Empress of Britain, total +7 drm, Got a 2...(Light Dam)
Lost the U-Boat after escaping from reattacking the convoy to definitively sink it...

I am thinking to not use the # Torpedos modifier but to keep a roll for each Torpedo, it would have been sunk but only at the 6th roll Miss+Light+Miss+Heavy+Miss+Light
With old rules it would have been sunk at 4th Torpedo.

I will finish the campaign with other Green U-Boat but clearly it would be impossible to exit from the Dismal performance.

Alex
 
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Dean Brown
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Alex,
That is the hardest ship to sink.

I agree that the multiple rolls option here seems to be better than the single-roll option.
Dean
 
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