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Subject: Martin Wallace declares A Few Acres to be "flawed" rss

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Clyde W
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garygarison wrote:
jigmelingpa wrote:
I think this quote from Martin himself from a recent interview sums everything up:

"Yes, [the game] is flawed. It is not something that can be fixed absolutely. The best way forward is to keep changing the rules, with scenarios, to present new challenges."

This quote deserves its own thread.
Agree.

So, there it is, sadly.

What I kind of hope for are a new pack of cards, with different connections, means of transport, weapons, and other useful items. That'd be really nice. I've definitely soured on playing this game recently, given its current ruleset and issues, but I think the concept of the game is incredible, and my first 10 or so plays of the game were fantastic... then AndrewE beat me with the broken method and it became significantly less fun from that point on.
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clydeiii wrote:
garygarison wrote:
jigmelingpa wrote:
I think this quote from Martin himself from a recent interview sums everything up:

"Yes, [the game] is flawed. It is not something that can be fixed absolutely. The best way forward is to keep changing the rules, with scenarios, to present new challenges."

This quote deserves its own thread.
Agree.

So, there it is, sadly.

What I kind of hope for are a new pack of cards, with different connections, means of transport, weapons, and other useful items. That'd be really nice. I've definitely soured on playing this game recently, given its current ruleset and issues.

Perhaps that is what he means by "scenarios"
 
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Tadeu Zubaran
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What a shame, I thought this was the deck building game that would like. Will have to keep waiting for the one.

Props to the designer for speaking the truth even if it hurts the sales.

An interesting thing is how the game got to its current position in the ratings. The ratings are a good clue of how good a game is, but the name attached to it doe influence the ratings for sure.
 
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Well the game is a lot of fun and it's very innovative and very approachable for a wargame. The system is ingenious. It's a pity that this particular implementation has some flaws.

However, just as I don't think Martin is skilled enough at the game to properly balance it, I also believe the corollary applies: He's not skilled enough at the game to declare it can't be fixed.

If he's giving up on it, then he should let the community have free reign to address it - and by that I mean authorize the Yucata folks (i.e., Brer Bear) to make alterations that we can test online until we develop a community-approved mod.
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Doug Bias
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Wow. I hope he really does continue to improve this and that it doesn't just get swept under the rug.
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tkzubaran wrote:
What a shame, I thought this was the deck building game that would like. Will have to keep waiting for the one.

Props to the designer for speaking the truth even if it hurts the sales.

An interesting thing is how the game got to its current position in the ratings. The ratings are a good clue of how good a game is, but the name attached to it doe influence the ratings for sure.


Martin Wallace has 73 games in the database. 3 of them rank higher than AFAoS. The game is well-ranked because it's a fantastic game. So, even by the standards of the venerable Martin Wallace, it's a good game.

It has a flaw, but I'd rather play this game than the "flawless", say, Carcassonne.

Basically, it's not because it has a flaw that you wouldn't enjoy it. It doesn't affect my liking for it, and I'm evidently not alone.
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I would agree, to a point, until you get to 'that knowledge' point about certain things the game is certainly fun and can swing either way, the sad thing about it is, once you have learnt then you only have certain paths to follow if you wish to win (or so my understanding goes).

If like me you don't study these things the game is fun and will last, unless you're playing someone who does study then you lose each and every time, that is why Martin said it was 'flawed', I hope that people continue to put ideas forward on how to advance the game, it's a wonderful system and deserves more.
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I've got the impression that "scenarios" will only be a different sets of rules, so there won't be any real expansions with new cards etc.:
Quote:
What I have realised in testing different versions of the game is that in itself is what could make the game retain long-term playability. Changing the rules is effectively the same as the changing card combinations in Dominion. What I am planning on doing is publishing varients on the Treefrog website. It's probably best to think of them as scenarios. Some of these will take the form of'what-ifs', allowing the game to diverge from published history.


With recent statement though, that the game is flawed and cannot be fixed absolutely, I am worried that the game will end up as a Black Stories derivative, with only "one-time" worthy of playing scenarios (when you guess the solution/discover the winning strtegy, there's no sense in playing it anymore). Which leads a beatiful game to being more of a set of riddles that an actual strategy game with high replayability value and I certainly don't like this direction.

There's a hope in expert players abilities to research what changes could be done to balance this game since the official rules and fix are not working as they should. It would be nice if the community supported them with their work and eventually accept the result of it, so it could maybe become played on a tournament level again, or at least casually but without the downhearting feeling of it being broken with an unbeatable startegy. The designer admitted the game is flawed and cannot be fixed (by him), so those players are our last hope for this game to be fixed, really.
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Jean Gagnier
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The best approach is to voluntarily avoid knowing of the strategy. If you can!
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Kevin 'Rocky' Robertson
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I agree Tom, gold to you sir
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Oh, bugger off....


To me this game is brilliant, I have played it about 10 times (i.e. 10 gaming nights) I have payed 40 Euros for the game, that makes it 4 Euro per night (still inclining). This game has more BANG FOR THE BUG than most games in my collection.....

Now, if the game IS flawed in a sense that there is ONE way to victory... as a gamer, if I would read about THE killer solution for my side, I would NEVER implement it in a game - why? Because it just won't be fun...

So what is this fuss all about? About the ONE way to break the game? Congrats to all the people who found out themselves (honestly) even MORE congrats to those who just READ about the optimal strategy and never even finding out themselves, now what? Do you want to imply this strategy in each and every game? YES, then the game IS broken... otherwise, you will even get more than 4 Euros per game out of this gem....

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Mixo

Spot on, it depends if you wish to 'play' the game, or beat the game, Gold to you too

I'm in a gold giving mood, must me playing as British! whistle
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jgag wrote:
The best approach is to voluntarily avoid knowing of the strategy. If you can!


I was trying to do this, but read enough about the game that I wound up picking up the broad strokes -- though only to the point where, when I saw the "fixed" rules, they seemed like they'd solve the problem. I've been carefully avoiding finding out more.

Martin Wallace's declaration, though, is disappointing (though I admire him for declaring it). My wife and I really enjoyed our one play, and I rate the game a 9. But in the back of my mind, I'm always going to know that it's broken and, should I ever find/figure out the game-breaking strategy, I won't be able to enjoy the game again.

That's a weird and disappointing place to be.
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manfromtherock wrote:
I agree Tom, gold to you sir

Thank you.

What I really mean is, the idea of additional scenarios is great and Martin should be applauded for it BUT it's only great when the game itself is balanced and so are the scenarios. Because there's no point in publlishing them, when after a couple of games it's obvious that in scenario A the British always win with another iteration of Halifax Hammer, in scenario B the French are overpowered and with quickly with settlements and so on. For competent players it will become obvious who is to win in the scenario even before playing it, they'll just need to look up what are their starting decks and what rules are changed, when the flawed game's core is still present.

A topic to propose changes that could be tested on Yucata is actually a very good idea, if only Brer Bear accepts it and dedicates his time to implement them for playtesters.
 
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Mixo wrote:

So what is this fuss all about? About the ONE way to break the game? Congrats to all the people who found out themselves (honestly) even MORE congrats to those who just READ about the optimal strategy and never even finding out themselves, now what? Do you want to imply this strategy in each and every game? YES, then the game IS broken... otherwise, you will even get more than 4 Euros per game out of this gem....



Ah, but you see, you have to be more skilled than the designer to actually pull it off! This neverending bitching and the constant new threads are really annoying as hell.

Detractors... just... stop playing if it's so broken, and I'll gladly take your copy off of you for free.
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gschmidl wrote:
This neverending bitching and the constant new threads are really annoying as hell.

It's a shame people keep forcing you to read them.
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Mixo wrote:
So what is this fuss all about? About the ONE way to break the game? Congrats to all the people who found out themselves (honestly) even MORE congrats to those who just READ about the optimal strategy and never even finding out themselves, now what? Do you want to imply this strategy in each and every game? YES, then the game IS broken... otherwise, you will even get more than 4 Euros per game out of this gem....
Superb. Fantastic. Until you try playing the French against an English player who a) knows how to break it and b) wants to win, no matter what the cost. Then you might feel differently about the game. Don't go play it on Yucata, that's for sure.

Try not shooting the messenger next time.
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clydeiii wrote:
Mixo wrote:
So what is this fuss all about? About the ONE way to break the game? Congrats to all the people who found out themselves (honestly) even MORE congrats to those who just READ about the optimal strategy and never even finding out themselves, now what? Do you want to imply this strategy in each and every game? YES, then the game IS broken... otherwise, you will even get more than 4 Euros per game out of this gem....
Superb. Fantastic. Until you try playing the French against an English player who a) knows how to break it and b) wants to win, no matter what the cost. Then you might feel differently about the game. Don't go play it on Yucata, that's for sure.

Try not shooting the messenger next time.

But it's so much easier to shoot the messenger than it is to shoot anybody else ...

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gschmidl wrote:

Ah, but you see, you have to be more skilled than the designer to actually pull it off!

There's a player whose 7 year old son beat him with HH.

Seriously, I wonder why there are people who react angrily and start whining and moaning when others just want to fix a broken game and write about on a forum dedicated to it.

We have a game with issues to fix here, there's no need for people with issuses here at the same time.
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Hopefully you can fix both.
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One silver lining from the interview is that Martin revealed he is working on a multiplayer game based on AFAOS, which could be very interesting, assuming he can avoid fatal flaws to the design.
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clydeiii wrote:
Mixo wrote:
So what is this fuss all about? About the ONE way to break the game? Congrats to all the people who found out themselves (honestly) even MORE congrats to those who just READ about the optimal strategy and never even finding out themselves, now what? Do you want to imply this strategy in each and every game? YES, then the game IS broken... otherwise, you will even get more than 4 Euros per game out of this gem....
Superb. Fantastic. Until you try playing the French against an English player who a) knows how to break it and b) wants to win, no matter what the cost. Then you might feel differently about the game. Don't go play it on Yucata, that's for sure.

Try not shooting the messenger next time.


Right, so just

- do not play it on Yucata (at least not with "sensible" gamers, otherwise it would not makes sense, as it is broken, so why does this game does get play at all any longer?????

- just do not play it with a person that is THAT EAGER to win (which I won't anyway, as I can't stand the whining when those people loose)


...I'd quite happily play either side against any player and quite happily (and surely) loose the game against a person who is OH SO MIGHTY to bring up the whatever hammer, just to smile into his (most likely his, as female gamers do not tend to compare d*** sizes like that) face and say, "oh you HAMMERed me"...

quite frankly: If you are into COMPETITIVE gaming:

YES, the game is broken, stop whining and play another game (but please still consider the value you got out of the game BEFORE you realized its borkeness)

Otherwise:

Just have another beer and one more friendly game of a few acres of snow....
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solkan1 wrote:
gschmidl wrote:

Ah, but you see, you have to be more skilled than the designer to actually pull it off!

There's a player whose 7 year old son beat him with HH.

Seriously, I wonder why there are people who react angrily and start whining and moaning when others just want to fix a broken game and write about on a forum dedicated to it.

We have a game with issues to fix here, there's no need for people with issuses here at the same time.


When you write something about a game some people read it like you are talking about their son.
 
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TheDarkKnight wrote:
Hopefully you can fix both.

I'm a medical doctor (well, almost) so I can actually fix people.

Fixing the game won't be that easy though.

Quote:
When you write something about a game some people read it like you are talking about their son.

Not sure if serious.

But if you are, then fixing those people won't be easy either.
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Just keep beating that dead horse! Just keep mashing the dead horse into the mud. Blam! Blam Blam!

Maybe if you beat it enough you can make glue.

Peace

PS. I sure feel better now. devil
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