Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
21 Posts

The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: When you reach 50... what is salvagable? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Colin Houghton
United Kingdom
London
London
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
When you reach 50 (and I don't mean in age-that's 7 years in the past!!) and your deck and heroes all collapse, in two player games, can the remaining player claim stuff for all those that are destroyed? I mean, can you claim that they are "leaving play" and therefore have a Horn of Gondor fest. There are probably other cards that could salvage stuff as well.

Apologies if this been asked before (it probably has!)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason
United States
Champaign
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mb
Chou4555 wrote:
I mean, can you claim that they are "leaving play" and therefore have a Horn of Gondor fest.


From the rulebook:

Quote:
When a player is eliminated, his hand, all of the cards he controls, and his deck are placed in their owners’ discard piles.


I don't know of an official ruling on the matter. I would interpret this as the cards leaving play, which would trigger the Horn.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Colin Houghton
United Kingdom
London
London
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
And I think there are cards that salvage heroes from the discard pile too... but as the heroe's controlling player is no more, I guess they're gone for good!

And maybe when you reach 50, there's no longer a discard pile...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michail Giannis
Greece
Athens
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Horn of Gondor wouldn't trigger.
When the hero reaches 50 he is eliminated (out of the game). It's like his cards are no longer in the game. You take them out of the game.
They don't leave the game because they are no longer in the game.

But to be honest there is NO official answer on this one.



Also when a player is eliminated ALL and i mean ALL of his cards go to the discard pile..... and by an official answer they do not interact ay longer with the game.

I asked the designer for a different card and i received this Answer
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/735929/question-about-ca...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Corbin
United States
Tallahassee
FL
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I understand that you can't interact with player's cards after they have been eliminated (you couldn't use The Galadrim's Greeting to lower threat and then use Fortune of Fate to bring back a hero, for example).

but why would that limit Horn of Gondor?

Horn of Gondor doesn't interact or affect other player cards the way Fortune or Fate does, it is simply a response to other cards state of play. I don't see why it would matter if character cards leave play by the player being eliminated or if they leave play by damage or other card effect.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason
United States
Champaign
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mb
MountainRoot wrote:
Horn of Gondor wouldn't trigger.
When the hero reaches 50 he is eliminated (out of the game). It's like his cards are no longer in the game. You take them out of the game.


The rules specifically note that the cards are put into their owner's discard pile when a player is eliminated. If that's not the definition of "leaving play", I don't know what is.

Quote:
They don't leave the game because they are no longer in the game.


If a player's cards are no longer in the game, did they not "leave play"?

Quote:
Also when a player is eliminated ALL and i mean ALL of his cards go to the discard pile..... and by an official answer they do not interact ay longer with the game.

I asked the designer for a different card and i received this Answer
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/735929/question-about-ca...


This is a completely different situation. It makes sense that a player should not be able to bring cards back from the discard pile of a player that has been eliminated. Horn of Gondor's effect is a response to cards leaving play, and the rules say a player's cards leave play as they are eliminated.

What is really needed, here, is a definition of the term "leaves play" and whether it includes cards discarded due to player elimination.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mighty Rauros
United States
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I strongly support the pro-Horn of Gondor argument.

An, man, now that gives an interesting strategy to use in very dire straits.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michail Giannis
Greece
Athens
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jason wrote:
The rules specifically note that the cards are put into their owner's discard pile when a player is eliminated. If that's not the definition of "leaving play", I don't know what is.


Again i say that there is NO official answer.

RuleBook wrote:

In Play and Out of Play
"In play" refers to cards that have been played or put
into play (in a player’s play area), to cards that are
waiting in the staging area, to the currently revealed
quest card, and to encounter cards that are engaged
with that player. "Out of play" states are" in a player's
hand," "in a deck," or "in a discard pile.” Card effects
do not interact with cards in an out of play state unless
the effect specifically refers to that state.



From my point of view when a player is eliminated he is immediately out of the game. His cards no longer interact with the game.
"Yes but the designer says to put all your cards to their owner's discard pile. That means that they are out of play so the horn of gondor works"

My problem is that i think that they said that ONLY in order to see that when a player is eliminated all his cards would end into their discard pile and not to someone else.
Why would they say that, knowing that after a player is eliminated there is no way to interact with their discard pile??????

They could just say that when a player is eliminated he is out of the game. Pack your cards and go. No out of the game, no discard piles.....
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick Brennan
Australia
St Ives, Sydney
NSW
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
My view. The definition of "leaves play" is that they move from "in play" to "out of play". Defn of "out of play" is in player's hands, decks, discard pile.

According to Nate, a dead player's discard piles are no longer in the game. Because the discard piles are no longer in the game, they don't meet the "out of play" definition. (Also, cards in an "out of play" state are able to "enter play". This can't be done with a dead player's cards.)

There's no between state where cards are added to the discard piles, then the piles are eliminated from the game. It's simply that when the player dies, all his stuff is out of the game.

Therefore, IMO, the cards of a dying player leaving the game don't meet the definition of "leaves play". They don't meet the criteria of moving from "in play" to "out of play".


2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Colin Houghton
United Kingdom
London
London
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
whoa! The player shouldn't go home! He/she can still win the game- if the remaining player(s) win(s)!!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick Brennan
Australia
St Ives, Sydney
NSW
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
That's why you buy the Arwen Cheerleader expansion with the short skirt and pompoms. Dressing up and cheering everyone else on gives the eliminated player something useful and fun to do.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Colin Houghton
United Kingdom
London
London
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Actually, I find there's nothing more frustrating than being knocked out of a game, and then watching other people carry on with your fate in their hands... I agree, Patrick, bring on the dancing girls!!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason
United States
Champaign
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mb
PBrennan wrote:
It's simply that when the player dies, all his stuff is out of the game.


That's clear, but the rules confuse matters with the discard bit. From a casual player perspective, with only the rulebook to go by, the cards are being discarded as the player is eliminated. I think most would interpret this as the cards "leaving play" which would trigger the Horn, because "discard" equates to "leaving play" in any other situation.

If the cards are instead immediately removed from the game, and are not technically "discarded", there needs to be a rules clarification that cards leaving play due to player elimination are not actually discarded and do not trigger "leaves play" effects. The clarification that an eliminated player's cards are no longer part of the game is not enough to settle this issue, in my opinion.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Mills
United States
Los Angeles
CA
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I sent this question to Nate just know; I'll let you know if/when I get a response.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bart Rachemoss
United States
Silver City
New Mexico
flag msg tools
Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't see how a card could be in play and then no longer be in play without leaving play.

If I'm in the house and then I'm not in the house, it doesn't matter how I left (I could have teleported), I've still left the house.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick Brennan
Australia
St Ives, Sydney
NSW
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
BitJam wrote:
I don't see how a card could be in play and then no longer be in play without leaving play.

If I'm in the house and then I'm not in the house, it doesn't matter how I left (I could have teleported), I've still left the house.


I know what you're saying, but the colloquial phrase leaving play isn't the same as the game definition of "leaves play", which is quite strict as per above (pending further FAQ changes anyway).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bart Rachemoss
United States
Silver City
New Mexico
flag msg tools
Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
PBrennan wrote:
BitJam wrote:
I don't see how a card could be in play and then no longer be in play without leaving play.

If I'm in the house and then I'm not in the house, it doesn't matter how I left (I could have teleported), I've still left the house.


I know what you're saying, but the colloquial phrase leaving play isn't the same as the game definition of "leaves play", which is quite strict as per above (pending further FAQ changes anyway).

Please show me the game definition of "leaves play". I searched the rules and the FAQ and could not find it.

I believe the reason they didn't define it (assuming I didn't miss finding the definition) is because the ordinary, normal meaning of the words "leave play" is so clear and unambiguous that it never occurred to them that someone may not know what it means.

They clearly defined "in play". When a card goes from being "in play" to not being "in play" then it leaves play. It does not have to go into the set of "out of play" cards in order for it to leave play.

This is just my opinion. With any luck we should hear from Nate soon and get the definitive answer.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick Brennan
Australia
St Ives, Sydney
NSW
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
BitJam wrote:
Please show me the game definition of "leaves play". I searched the rules and the FAQ and could not find it.

Sourced from the rules thread titled
"removed from game", "discarded" and "destroyed" (official answer)
which had an official definition from Nate.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bart Rachemoss
United States
Silver City
New Mexico
flag msg tools
Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks. I found that thread:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/7608788#7608788

Nate said:
Nate wrote:
A card "leaves play" any time it moves from an in-play state to an out of play state (hand, deck, discard pile, removed from game).

Are people claiming that when a player is eliminated then this definition might not apply to all of their cards that were in play?

Is there any other possible state for a card to be in besides the ones Nate mentions above?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Corbin
United States
Tallahassee
FL
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
it certainly seems to me that when a player is eliminated their cards go from an in-play state to an out-of-play state and therefore meet the very definition of "leaving play"
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick Brennan
Australia
St Ives, Sydney
NSW
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Quite right. I have a definitions player aid which I work off, and I'm not sure how I missed the 'removed from game' bit - I've updated it now. Probably because I thought it was obvious at the time and left it off. But it's important. Thanks for pressing and catching it.

Therefore I'd agree (still following the definitions) that an eliminated player's cards can definitely be caught by stuff that has a "leaves play" entitlement.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.