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Subject: IPCs from a liberated capital rss

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Jimbo Smith
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Lets say UK controls Berlin and Germany is completely out of game. Japan is pushing into Europe. Let's say Japan occupies 3 of Germanys original territories. If Japan Liberates Berlin, what happens to the IPCs from the 3 territories in Europe and WHEN does it happen.
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Robert Wesley
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The 'Territories' that were originally belonging to GERMANY revert/return to their 'Control', whenever and immediately that they're "Liberated", along with their VALUE/IPC Award, if any. I seem to recollect a 'stipulation' whereby an ALLY could build upon a "Liberated" Industrial Complex with theirs, in a similar circumstance. While these too were limited by the IPC amount indicated within anywhere as for how many you could construct.
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Ted Torgerson
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Grogs is right. If Japan liberates Germany on Japan's turn during the collect income phase Japan would not collect for the 3 other territories that were originally German controlled because control reverts to Germany immediately when Germany is liberated. Germany collects for them on its next turn. This can become a problem. Germany will not have any IPCs to build or place units and sometimes UK can then reconquer Germany on its turn and take all Germany's newly collected IPCs. So it is sometimes better not to liberate Germany until you know you can hold against counterattack.
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Jimbo Smith
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Thank you guys. That's what I thought but it seems to be one of those scenarios that can be questionable depending on how you look at it. My friend was thinking that it wasn't right because no one would get those 3 countries IPCs. But thanks for clearing that up. We're new players and these forums and you guys are helping out a lot.
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Jason Weed
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You can never collect IPC from a territory originally owned by an ally country. Example: None of the gray territories can be controlled by Japan. If Germany is controlled by an allied power, the other unconquered german territories are considered German and not able to be conquered by Japan.

Same goes if Russia is taken. Otherwise the US and UK could spread out and as soon as Moscow falls, they take control of all Russian territores they are in, also, who would then control if both US and UK occupied the same territory? Karelia would then produce UK or US units. All of this is illegal.

The question in the original post is moot because Japan cannot conquer EE, Ukraine, Finland, or Italy. It can only liberate, giving the Germans back the production that they cannot use until their capital is liberated.

On a side note, if Germany is gone (and Italy probably also), the allies should build a factory in France and then they can outproduce the Japanese Russia/Karelia factories by more than double. Japan can't win if played correctly by the allies (16 Infantry in Germany/Italy and 6 tanks in France, plus anymore that the UK has left coming off transports from the capital compared to 11 total units for Japan). Yes more can come from India/FIC/Manch factories, but they are much slower and still only give Japan 20 units total.
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Kevin Chapman
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weed131 wrote:
You can never collect IPC from a territory originally owned by an ally country. Example: None of the gray territories can be controlled by Japan. If Germany is controlled by an allied power, the other unconquered german territories are considered German and not able to be conquered by Japan.

Sorry, Jason, but this is incorrect. You can't take an ally's territory directly from him, but you can take temporary control of it if his capital is held by the enemy and you recapture it from the enemy, just as GROGnads said. You can even use an industrial complex there as long as you control it.
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Jason Weed
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I see the rule on using a liberated complex (such a minor foot note i never noticed it before). I've played forever online using the turn based game in the different web clubs but that does not allow for this or allied territory ownerships. As every game would have this question after the first capital falls, it's amazing there is not at least a sub section on this in the rules.

We always defaulted to the rules clarification section under Captured Capitals and the Who Owns What section. They appear to directly contradict the liberated complex footnote. It clearly states you can never give an ally a territory (paragraph 3 under who owns what in the rules clarification). Interpreting this way any liberated territory would be liberated, not taken control of by an ally, even temporarily. The key word is liberated, I think the grammar in the rules was just poor, if you take control, you are not liberating. With the word liberating coming first, you are then temporarily ceding control for a period until your capital is liberated, thus giving away a territory, thus violating a clearly defined rule clarification. Like in Birth of the Federation, you have the option to liberate or take control over a planet that you are taking from another major power, there it is clearly defined.

Looking at the entire thing, it is clear you can "borrow" their factory as clearly defined after retaking a territory (strange you can't immediately on the fall of a capital but oh well). No where does it state though (that i have found) that you take the IPC values for those territories. This could be inferred, using the liberated factory rule or the territory could be considered neutral with no IPC value like other neutrals until a capital is liberated. It does not state the capacity of the factory (unlimited would no be likely, but whether to treat it as a factory like a neutral or one with base level IPC production, the more likely scenario), just that you can use it. A clarification from Larry would be nice, I looked all over his website and found none there either.

Also, though this is not a game where things always make sense, it seems more likely Russia wouldn't mind units being produced in its factory to potentially defend and/or liberate its territroy, but if you start stealing there IPC and shipping them back to your home to potentially be used in other theaters, Russia might be a bit more upset and consider this a violation of there sovereignty.

Later editions may have already addressed this issue, but I am strictly speaking on this edition. Not Revised or anything after it.
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Robert Wesley
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I have to concur with what Jason initially stated, as regards with the Computer version as well. It won't allow the use of "Liberated" areas to an ALLY for anything. While we are talking upon the BOARD version in this instance, so, we shall 'abide' for such!
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Kevin Chapman
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I don't see why a clarification from Larry is necessary (though you're getting the next best thing right now), as the rules are very clear on this issue. See page 20 of the Rulebook, under "Results of Both Land And Naval Combat".

The statement you refer to in the "Who Owns What" section of the Rules Clarifications document about giving things to your allies is not intended to override the other rules of the game. It's simply there to clarify that outright gifts to your allies are illegal. However, I agree that the use of the term "liberator" on page 20 in this circumstance is misleading, but that in itself is not grounds for your argument, as it clearly states that the income from the territory and use of any industrial complex (i.e. control of the territory) go to the "liberator".

I am curious as to which computer version isn't following this rule properly. I've never heard of this before. Is it the official A&A CD-ROM version, or some other version?

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Robert Wesley
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Hoi "Krieghund", and mine here is the very first, and original Computer CD edition, with 'appending' through 'patch' at that, while especially for XP. I don't know if it were "messed up" as a result from such of the latter, although it is 'strongly suspected' now!
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Kevin Chapman
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Hmmm. That's definitely a bug, as the 3rd Edition rules file that came with the CD-ROM version has the same rules as the 2nd Edition boardgame for this situation.
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Robert Wesley
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oh, great! Yeah, their XP "DISservice Packs" #1 & #2 were just that indeed! While we both know and realize that the written out RULES may remain as such unfettered, then it is through the implementation for those by the computer AFTER the files had become 'corrupted', altered, or diverged due in main part FROM the SPs effects and there isn't anyway to AVOID this nor CORRECT that once again, now.
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Kevin Chapman
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Yup, it's a sad state of affairs. You have no choice but to play that way on the computer. Fortunately, we're still free to play correctly on an actual board, where we're free from its tyranny.
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Jason Weed
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This just makes it that much more impossible for Japan to overcome the loss of its German ally. As soon as UK takes back Karelia and then can produce there also, this just makes liberating Russia easier, by that time it's time to call the game. I suppose there is a slim chance that Japan could take Italy and thus benefit there, but the allies would have to have royally messed up to allow Japan to hold Italy 1 turn after the German capital had already been taken.

It's probably a moot point either way, but an interesting rule. I only ever saw this come up on the computer disc version (which I own the original and online patches) and it went as i stated. I tested the original without patches and it worked the same as I stated. After patches is still does also. I would probably default to your interpretation if it was ever needed.

I don't think it would have ever made a difference in the 3,000+ games of this version I've played in person and online. I've only had a few players want to continue after Germany fell (with or without Moscow/Russia) and those games have been short work for the allies, even if Japan has half of Africa and the whole South Pacific. The only way the axis win is if Japan can retake Germany the same turn or next turn after the fall (assuming Italy isn't lost and France doesn't have a factory, then they would need a same turn counter that couldn't be retaken). Otherwise the Eastern Europe line is established and it's a slow death for Japan from there.

*side note: I own both the original and Iron blitz CD Rom versions of the game, they both played the same when dealing with this issue (not giving the income, it's quite possible this never came up in play testing as it is such a rare event and that the game would more than likely have been conceded before this would ever take place).
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