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Twilight Imperium (Third Edition)» Forums » Variants

Subject: Red Tape with Bureaucracy. rss

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Fedor Syagin
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Greetings.
Can someone post rules for the Red Tape with Bureaucracy Variant?
I get general idea of all open with counters on each, but that still leaves some questions that I cannot find source for.

1.) What do you do about bonus counters when someone pick up bureaucracy? (I am assuming that you remove that many counters from objectives in order.)
2.) Is Imperium Rex used with this variant at all?
3.) When does the game stop (Only after someone get 10 points or there is some other counter for number of turns etc.)

Anything else that I need to know about this variant that I am missing?

Thank you very much.
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Scott Lewis
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garfielder wrote:

3.) When does the game stop (Only after someone get 10 points or there is some other counter for number of turns etc.)
I'm not the expert with Red Tape, but for this one, there is no "timer" other than the points. And unless you are using another house rule on the points, it should actually be 9 points, not 10 (the rules say you should use 9 points when playing with Bureaucracy, probably to offset the loss of the "free" points from Imperial and Imperial II).
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Scott Randolph
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garfielder wrote:
Greetings.
Can someone post rules for the Red Tape with Bureaucracy Variant?
I get general idea of all open with counters on each, but that still leaves some questions that I cannot find source for.

1.) What do you do about bonus counters when someone pick up bureaucracy? (I am assuming that you remove that many counters from objectives in order.)
2.) Is Imperium Rex used with this variant at all?
3.) When does the game stop (Only after someone get 10 points or there is some other counter for number of turns etc.)

Anything else that I need to know about this variant that I am missing?

Thank you very much.
Here is the way we have played "Red Tape 'Bureaucracy'":
a. this a variant on "AoE" (Age of Empire Optional Rule)
b. the Bonus Tokens, if any, on SC#8 "Bruearcracy" are just that, ordinary Bonus Tokens
c. For "Standard War" to [9] VP's in the case of the use SC#8 Bureaucracy" randomly draw three Stage I PO's (Public Objectives) and lay them out, then draw 3 more random Stage I PO's and place a "barring" or "Red Tape" token on them. Next, randomly draw 4 Stage II PO's, lay them out and also place a "barring" token on them as well.
d. When executing the primary ability of SC#8 "Bureaucracy" the player chooses one PO to be "Unbarred" and may then immediately claim a PO for which they qualify, and also draws a CC from their reserve. Only Stage I PO's may be "Unbarred" in the first three Game Rounds. In the 4th Game Round and after, Stage II PO's may be chosen to be "Unbarred."

Strategy hint (probably obvious, but I'll place it here any way), wait to execute the primary ability of SC#8 "Bureaucracy" for such a time when one is able to actually qualify for one of the PO's, or to be able to claim the one which one will "Unbar." We have played that one can claim an objective simultaneously with "Unbarring" it.

Not sure if everyone plays "Red Tape Bureaucracy" this way, but I thought it was fun. Hope this helps! (SFRR)
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Scott Lewis
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For what it's worth, with "b", I think the original question is what happens when you take Bureaucracy with Bonus tokens. When using the RAW version of Bureaucracy, if it has bonus tokens, as soon as you select it, in addition to getting TG/CC you also immediately flip over POs equal to the number of Bonus tokens (to make sure that even if it's not taken for a few rounds, it will still provide the right number of objectives in the long run). Thus, the question is, do you unbar them in some kind of order, or does the choosing player pick which ones to unbar. I'm fairly sure that you unbar them from left-to-right in that case.

With c, unbarring the extra POs is not the "official" way of doing it (I use "official" in quotes as the variant itself is obviously not official, but in the original variant only one PO was unbarred to start, just as in the RAW version one PO is put into play to start).

Just thought I'd mention these.
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Scott Randolph
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sigmazero13 wrote:
For what it's worth, with "b", I think the original question is what happens when you take Bureaucracy with Bonus tokens. When using the RAW version of Bureaucracy, if it has bonus tokens, as soon as you select it, in addition to getting TG/CC you also immediately flip over POs equal to the number of Bonus tokens (to make sure that even if it's not taken for a few rounds, it will still provide the right number of objectives in the long run). Thus, the question is, do you unbar them in some kind of order, or does the choosing player pick which ones to unbar. I'm fairly sure that you unbar them from left-to-right in that case.

With c, unbarring the extra POs is not the "official" way of doing it (I use "official" in quotes as the variant itself is obviously not official, but in the original variant only one PO was unbarred to start, just as in the RAW version one PO is put into play to start).

Just thought I'd mention these.
To be honest Sigmazero13 (our Dear Mr Lewis!), I haven't read any formal, written version of "Red Tape 'Bureaucracy'" - this is just the way we played last time - and it was quite fun (with the exception of one players "antics"), but I would be happy with the way you have described it as well, that would be fun too I think.
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Scott Lewis
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SFRR wrote:
sigmazero13 wrote:
For what it's worth, with "b", I think the original question is what happens when you take Bureaucracy with Bonus tokens. When using the RAW version of Bureaucracy, if it has bonus tokens, as soon as you select it, in addition to getting TG/CC you also immediately flip over POs equal to the number of Bonus tokens (to make sure that even if it's not taken for a few rounds, it will still provide the right number of objectives in the long run). Thus, the question is, do you unbar them in some kind of order, or does the choosing player pick which ones to unbar. I'm fairly sure that you unbar them from left-to-right in that case.

With c, unbarring the extra POs is not the "official" way of doing it (I use "official" in quotes as the variant itself is obviously not official, but in the original variant only one PO was unbarred to start, just as in the RAW version one PO is put into play to start).

Just thought I'd mention these.
To be honest Sigmazero13 (our Dear Mr Lewis!), I haven't read any formal, written version of "Red Tape 'Bureaucracy'" - this is just the way we played last time - and it was quite fun (with the exception of one players "antics"), but I would be happy with the way you have described it as well, that would be fun too I think.
Lol, well, I *did* mention that in my original email about it, but I think it was Kevin who didn't like there only being one available PO to start with
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Remy Gibson
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I am not the originator of the variant, but I have been a big promoter of it for a long time.

Here is a link to a printable image of the Strategy Card: http://checkwolf.com/ti3/images/high%20resolution/jpeg/sc%20...

Here is the text:
"Prepare Objective deck as normal, than deal out all Public Objectives in a line. Place Red Tape counters on all but the first Public Objective. No Public Objective with a Red Tape counter may be claimed.

Special: After selecting this Strategy Card, remove Red Tape counters equal to the number of Bonus Counters on this card.

Primary ability: Receive 1 Command Counter from your reinforcements. Then, remove one Red Tape counter from the Public Objective of your choice. You may not choose a Stage II Objective in the first three rounds. You may then immediately claim one Public Objective for which you qualify."

So sigma (as usual) is right about the way the variant was initially designed -- it is supposed to emulate Bureaucracy as closely as possible, so only the first PO is available from the start of the game.

To answer the OP:

1) Yes, the Bonus counters trigger objectives to be "unlocked" in order. This is not explicitly stated on the card, but it can be inferred from the fact that the phrase "of your choice" occurs in the primary ability of the card but not in the Special section.

2) Imperium Rex may be used with this variant. I would recommend dealing out the line of cards fully, rather than cutting it off when Imperium Rex is drawn, as is recommended in the base rules. This way the Bonus counter unlocking can trigger the endgame, but otherwise it's left up to the players. (As an aside, I typically don't play with Imperium Rex after numerous bad-taste-in-my-mouth experiences of abrupt endings to early games we played.)

3) If playing with Imperium Rex per the actual rules, it will obviously stop then. Otherwise, as with any non-IR variant, it stops when the designated point total is reached: the suggested 9 with variant SC, 10 from the base game, or 14 from The Long War.

sigmazero13 wrote:
the rules say you should use 9 points when playing with Bureaucracy, probably to offset the loss of the "free" points from Imperial and Imperial II
I almost corrected Sigma here, until I picked up that he used the word "should." A lot of people assume that 9VP is the goal by definition when using the variant SC, but it is just a recommendation. If I put in my two cents about it (which by this point has to be close to a dollar on this issue), I think the addition of the extra Stage II PO and Artifacts does plenty to offset the loss of the ISC; Shards goes even further with its multiple VP-affecting cards.

SFRR wrote:
d. When executing the primary ability of SC#8 "Bureaucracy" the player chooses one PO to be "Unbarred" and may then immediately claim a PO for which they qualify, and also draws a CC from their reserve. Only Stage I PO's may be "Unbarred" in the first three Game Rounds. In the 4th Game Round and after, Stage II PO's may be chosen to be "Unbarred."
This agrees with the way the variant was designed.

Another alternative proposed at the time of the designing of this variant was not to have the "red tape" counters at all, that all of the Public Objectives are available right from the start (with the usual caveat about not being able to claim Stage II's until Round 4). This would more closely emulate the original option as explained in the base rules.

My personal issue with it is that it noticeably weakens the power of Bureaucracy, as it strips the control over the objectives that is an important part of the card. It's obviously not a useless card, since the double-claim is still part of it, but I prefer the "red tape" version, which is why I made an image of it.
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Mikael Holmberg
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When we play TI3, we always use the red tape bureaucracy variant.

We also do play with the Imperium Rex card as a game stopper. But we play like this:

When all red tape counters are removed(or the bonus counters match the amount of red tape counters that are left on all PO-cards) accept for the one on Imperium Rex. That triggers the last round of the game.
 
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Lars Rignell
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I am planning a game with 4 players and I am thinking of trying the red tape-variant.
But how does it work (if at all) with 4players, where no bonus counters will be placed on it when all the SC will be chosen every round?

 
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Fedor Syagin
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ringan wrote:
I am planning a game with 4 players and I am thinking of trying the red tape-variant.
But how does it work (if at all) with 4players, where no bonus counters will be placed on it when all the SC will be chosen every round?

Pretty much same as with regular Bureaucracy.
You don't get bonus counters, but card will be picked up each round and someone will have to remove one red counter each round.
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Remy Gibson
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garfielder wrote:
ringan wrote:
I am planning a game with 4 players and I am thinking of trying the red tape-variant.
But how does it work (if at all) with 4players, where no bonus counters will be placed on it when all the SC will be chosen every round?

Pretty much same as with regular Bureaucracy.
You don't get bonus counters, but card will be picked up each round and someone will have to remove one red counter each round.
Exactly right.
 
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